liquid2air ic

[det_ms3]

has anyone thought about this or is this just not a viable option? pro's con's? anything? just a thought, you know?

[redrocketz]

we've thrown the idea around here but haven't gone for it just yet.

[Grim]

trz was gonna try it,but stopped because the price would be too much.

[enganear]

Originally Posted by det_ms3 has anyone thought about this or is this just not a viable option? pro's con's? anything? just a thought, you know?

There was a Mustang concept show car that had a freon based intercooler good for 30 seconds of subfreezing air at full throttle. This is cool because it allows you to accumulate liquid freon via the refrigeration (reverse-Rankine) cycle and then have the super cold air during boost.

Air to water still has to dump heat to air, so you lose efficiency by including another stage of heat transfer.
-enganear

[bova]

someone over on 6club did this with their speed6 and i believe he is selling it now for like a grand or something.

[Haltech]

H20 intercoolers work great in real high heat climates. Our Lightnings use them and there is a guy who converts the res to tap into the ac line, which creates a chiller.. Trucks pickup between 27 to 41 hp with that mod. You can sit in the staging lane with it charged. Do your burn out and staging with the AC than cut it off at the last second. That water will stay at 40F through an entire run.

[redrocketz]

Originally Posted by enganear There was a Mustang concept show car that had a freon based intercooler good for 30 seconds of subfreezing air at full throttle. This is cool because it allows you to accumulate liquid freon via the refrigeration (reverse-Rankine) cycle and then have the super cold air during boost. Air to water still has to dump heat to air, so you lose efficiency by including another stage of heat transfer. -enganear

im pretty sure that was the Lightning concept truck from a few years back. great idea except for the fact if the R-134A (not freon that's for household cooling) ignited somehow it could become a knoxious gas, not as bad as R-12 which basically became low-grade mustard gas.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by redrocketz im pretty sure that was the Lightning concept truck from a few years back. great idea except for the fact if the R-134A (not freon that's for household cooling) ignited somehow it could become a knoxious gas, not as bad as R-12 which basically became low-grade mustard gas.

No, this guy designed it before that concept truck ever showed the power cooler option. You can buy the system for $550 from this guy in CA.

[det_ms3]

i was just thinking about it cause their are a few shops and dsm guys around here that run them. but all the info and coversation so far is great. i have a shop around here that told me that they'd like to build me one if i wanted to do their setup. not really sure on it cause as much as i know they are knowledgeable and great guys i just don't really know how well that setup will work, its efficiency over anything else on the market and numerous other factors but it does in theory sound really good. and i think they were saying something about tapping the ac for it as well. my only concern there is with the humidity here in michigan and as much as i've tolerated over the past 4 summers with no a/c in my focus and mirage turbo, just barely running or not working a/c in my work trucks, or my contours just barely running a/c, i'm going to appreciate the a/c in the mazda a lot this year and i don't want to lose that. i can't stand the humidity here, its not the heat just the humidity. no a/c sucks here period.

[mexicant]

Meth Injection FTW! Get the $300 Progressive Kit from Devils Own. You can get the meth really cheap at Walmart. Equivilent to 110-120 octane and it cools the charge because of the water. Some DSM guys run this stuff without intercoolers.

[redrocketz]

Originally Posted by Haltech No, this guy designed it before that concept truck ever showed the power cooler option. You can buy the system for $550 from this guy in CA.

I was referring to Enganears comment about a Ford Concept car.

Oh and you don't have to lose your A/C to use a liquid to air intercooler. A good friend of Ken's runs one on his Mazdaspeed Protege, it's a pretty sick setup he has the water tank in the trunk and the lines are run under the car to the heat exchanger's under the hood. And the local DSM shop called AMS just switched to this setup on their record running EVO and picked up a significant amount of HP.

[mexicant]

Originally Posted by redrocketz I was referring to Enganears comment about a Ford Concept car. Oh and you don't have to lose your A/C to use a liquid to air intercooler. A good friend of Ken's runs one on his Mazdaspeed Protege, it's a pretty sick setup he has the water tank in the trunk and the lines are run under the car to the heat exchanger's under the hood. And the local DSM shop called AMS just switched to this setup on their record running EVO and picked up a significant amount of HP.

Some of us have a budget brother. Start selling those Meth Kits for us guys who can't afford C16.

[det_ms3]

well i might really look into it then cause these guys want to get their hnds on my car pretty bad. i keep shrugging it off though just cause this is my daily and i don't want a bunch of issues.

[Anklh]

Years ago, I gave a company named Coolflow in Houston $8000.00 to develop a trunk-mounted refrigerated liquid chiller with cold storage reservoir for my blown SHO. You can see pictures of the finished product here:

PictureTrail

Coolflow can be found here:

http://www.coolflow.com/intracooler/intercooler.htm

....fun times

[enganear]

Originally Posted by redrocketz im pretty sure that was the Lightning concept truck from a few years back. great idea except for the fact if the R-134A (not freon that's for household cooling) ignited somehow it could become a knoxious gas, not as bad as R-12 which basically became low-grade mustard gas.

Freon is a generic term for Dupont refrigerants, of which there are many and including R134A. Like Kleenex or Coke, it is a valid descriptor. You are correct about the mustard gas, except freon is not flammable and any flavor can be altered by passing through an open flame. My father was an AC contractor. I once purged a defective AC unit (with R22) in an apartment building where an oil fired space heater was in use and there was lots of coughing, running and yelling.
-enganear

[BlackMS3]

I've thought about making one...

Basically replacing the stock TMIC with a water to air system thin enough to clear the hood, then hooking up the lines through a pump and to a large surface area transmission cooler... yes, it's still air to air, but you will have the benefits of a FMIC without any lag or added tubes that lead to boost leak.

Also you could plum in a cooler into the lines before hitting the air/water cooler and have a chiller for the track... fill with ice and go...

You should be able to piece a system like this together for around $600 at the most...

[flashfrenzy]

I wonder if anyone has ever tried injecting liquid air (or oxygen) into a combustion engine. Or, probably more effective would be to keep it in liquid form until needed and heat it up just enough to have it return to gaseous form. Granted the weight of the equipment needed to keep the air or oxygen that cold would outweigh the potential gains but it would still be interesting to see.

[4DRHTRD]

I have a liquid to air intercooler that is built and can be easily reproduced.
Liquid to Air Intercooler

[Bravnik]

Now that's hot. How much to reproduce?

Ah followed the link. $1800 is a bit much. I can get a FMIC and DP for that

Looks really bad ass though. Good work.

[4DRHTRD]

Yeah unfortunately it's a liquid to air core using the factory end tanks and a front heat exchanger as well as a pump. The core is good for up to 600WHP and easily upgradeable past that with a higher output pump. Due to all the pieces it's much more expensive to produce, the core alone is around $600 cost...

[BlackMS3]

Originally Posted by 4DRHTRD I have a liquid to air intercooler that is built and can be easily reproduced. Liquid to Air Intercooler

Awesome! That's the hottest setup I've seen to date!!

Why the hell isn't anyone trying to make a cheap setup like that?? That thing will kill any air/air on the market to date for the MS3...

[4DRHTRD]

Not going to be able to make a cheap setup of that, if you do the core will only handle 200 or 300 WHP which would be a waste.

[BlackMS3]

There's plenty of companies that make cores... some charge a small fortune for a tiny core... others make them cheap, just like any product... You can get cores off ebay that support 1000hp+ for less than $600....

[4DRHTRD]

I would say good luck with that. The key for me was to have a core that would fit using the factory end tanks for ease of installation and as factory look as possible. We accomplished my goal. I don't believe in doing anything "cheaply" as it'll bite you in the ass in the long run. A leaky air to air core is no big deal, a leaky water to air core = water in the motor and insta-boom!!! Good luck getting an Ebay company that sold you the core to cover the $10K plus for a new engine.

[BlackMS3]

Oh, I agree that it's not something to take lightly or cheaply, I'm just saying it's possible.

The stock end tanks look awsome!

Now if you could just put the stock cover on it to hide it away, it would be perfect!! LOL!

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by det_ms3 has anyone thought about this or is this just not a viable option? pro's con's? anything? just a thought, you know?

Yes, lots of pro's very little con's. You think a $899 FMIC is expensive, try $1500 + for a water to air unit. There is room to do it and lots of spare space, just bring money if you want it as an option.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by BlackMS3 Oh, I agree that it's not something to take lightly or cheaply, I'm just saying it's possible. The stock end tanks look awsome! Now if you could just put the stock cover on it to hide it away, it would be perfect!! LOL!

I would never mount a unit on the top of the motor. It would all be mounted down in front of the car where it belongs. Up top would tax the unit when you were sitting at idle.

[4DRHTRD]

Originally Posted by ptperformance I would never mount a unit on the top of the motor. It would all be mounted down in front of the car where it belongs. Up top would tax the unit when you were sitting at idle.

You would think but my car has idled for well over an hour and the IC is still cool to the touch w/o ice in the reservoir. Many people were amazed last year at NOPI in Phoenix with it being over 90 out, idling in the sun and yet the tanks were cool. the heat exchanger is right where it's supposed to be but the LA core can be located almost anywhere w/o a problem due to the active cooling. Nobody puts them in the front of the car that I've seen, almost all sit in the engine bay for LA IC's.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by 4DRHTRD You would think but my car has idled for well over an hour and the IC is still cool to the touch w/o ice in the reservoir. Many people were amazed last year at NOPI in Phoenix with it being over 90 out, idling in the sun and yet the tanks were cool. the heat exchanger is right where it's supposed to be but the LA core can be located almost anywhere w/o a problem due to the active cooling. Nobody puts them in the front of the car that I've seen, almost all sit in the engine bay for LA IC's.

Yes lots put them off to the side or other areas, but right on top of the motor.... I have a problem with. I guess if you were to shorten it then you might have something, keeping it away from the radiant heat of the exhaust manifold (especially the turbular units) will be a must if I were to do this.

Your set up is very very nice, but $1800 is a bit steep for most MS3 owners.

[TRU-BOOST]

i, along with TRZ was going to make an IC like that. it was determined that the cost was going to be too high for what you got. it would be a great idea for the drag strip but it is not worth it on a street car. even the best designed liquid/air IC will be less efficient than a typical air/air IC during normal driving.... city or highway. the ability to add ice and other rapid cooling things like co2 make it great for the track, but a huge waste for every day. once we figured out the size the heat exchanger and water resivior needed to be to have a half way decent efficiency we were shocked !! they system would add almost 100#'s of weight when full ! anything smaller than that will cool like shit, and actually be significantly worse than the stock IC.

[Crossbow]

Setup looks sweet! Here's a question for you though. How much does that entire setup weigh, when filled with water? (weight of system + weight of capacity of fluid).

I just ask, because it looks like that setup would add roughly 40-50 lbs to the nose of the car (estimation). I'm all for a sweet setup like this, just curious on the nose weight gain.

[4DRHTRD]

Originally Posted by Crossbow Setup looks sweet! Here's a question for you though. How much does that entire setup weigh, when filled with water? (weight of system + weight of capacity of fluid). I just ask, because it looks like that setup would add roughly 40-50 lbs to the nose of the car (estimation). I'm all for a sweet setup like this, just curious on the nose weight gain.

I'll try and figure it out, the IC is only about 2lbs heavier than factory w/o water, I don't know about the front exchanger and small pump or how much total water it holds. I've asked the builder and we'll see what he says. I'd guess less than 2 gallons of water last time I filled it so around 18lbs and then exchanger and pump around 15lbs so approximately 37lbs give or take 5lbs.

[TRU-BOOST]

Originally Posted by 4DRHTRD I'll try and figure it out, the IC is only about 2lbs heavier than factory w/o water, I don't know about the front exchanger and small pump or how much total water it holds. I've asked the builder and we'll see what he says. I'd guess less than 2 gallons of water last time I filled it so around 18lbs and then exchanger and pump around 15lbs so approximately 37lbs give or take 5lbs.

OMG 2 gal of water ?! that is not enough to do a damn thing. thats because there is no extra resivior. the water is only going to the IC and heat exchanger. from the figuring we did anything less than 4 1/2 gal. of water would make for hotter than desired air charges....and that was based on a moving car. the benifit of water is that it wont heat soak as fast. the problem is, once hot it also wont cool as fast. i stand by my statement that it is a horrible idea for a street car. and i am not just talking out of my ass. i spent a lot of $$ trying to make one that would work well. i had all the goodies, a bell core, cobra pump, giant heat exchanger, once we realized how big the resivior had to be i said piss on it, i dont want it !

[4DRHTRD]

Trust me my intake temps are well below the factory IC and on par with all the FMIC's.

[det_ms3]

wow that setup looks amazing, but i think 1800 is way too much for me. i mean 2000K i could really get a lot more work done and get the same efficiency from a front mount...i didn't know they ran that expensive but its good to know that there is something like that out there.

[Haltech]

You could use a fluidyne core that they make for 03-04 Cobras. Thats good for 800hp.

[4DRHTRD]

Originally Posted by Haltech You could use a fluidyne core that they make for 03-04 Cobras. Thats good for 800hp.

Only if you wanted to mount it somewhere else, I guess the key is for someone else to make up a LA IC but for now I had one built, it works GREAT and I like it. There's not a whole lot of other places to stick it and we were able to minimize the amount of tubing required which also is a huge plus. If I go to more HP in the future we can add a reservoir with ice capabilities easily but for now it's fine. There are MANY other issues with the MS6/MS3 platform that must be solved well before my IC is even close to it's current limitations.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by 4DRHTRD Only if you wanted to mount it somewhere else, I guess the key is for someone else to make up a LA IC but for now I had one built, it works GREAT and I like it. There's not a whole lot of other places to stick it and we were able to minimize the amount of tubing required which also is a huge plus. If I go to more HP in the future we can add a reservoir with ice capabilities easily but for now it's fine. There are MANY other issues with the MS6/MS3 platform that must be solved well before my IC is even close to it's current limitations.

Oh you dont currently have a res than? It makes a huge difference.

[mexicant]

I wonder how it compares to meth injection? Which can more timing/boost be run on?

[Haltech]

No, its just removing the heat from the boost, but you cant get away with more timing with this. Meth is your safest bet because the alcohol is allowing the use of additional timing by adding octane.