Stay Off Drugs

[Gr8Speed]

I decided that I wanted to crank the k04 as far as I possibly could. To do that, I added some pre-turd meth. I was only spraying 155cc of 100% meth. I also sprayed 315cc pre-TB. I only did this for about 1000 miles before I yanked the turbo to put a Unicorn on. I discovered that this turbo is all kinds of fucked up. Still no smoke or shaft play (which amazes me after spiking 24 psi and holding 22 at redline). I saw BATs of 10 above ambient at redline on this setup. The compressor blades ate themselves. Will be tearing this bad bitch down to inspect for more damages sometime this week.

When I was tapping for the meth, I took the intake off. I did notice that the inlet was decomposing for some odd reason. My theory is that the "chemical resistant" silicone is breaking down because I didn't have an OCC for the first 98k of the car's life. I really am even hesitant to blame the compressor wheel damage on the meth because of this. When I was doing the turbo swap, I kept rubbing and rubbing, and the intake just kept falling apart. I think it was sucking silicone in and launching itself into the compressor. Either way, broken turbo is broken. I think for the hell of it I'm going to throw an ATP hot side with a stupid huge turbine wheel on it and upgrade to one of those china-charger compressor wheels.

I have no ragrets. I hit 340 whp on vDyno (previously hit 310 before the meth and uping boost) and put down a 4.89 60-100 on this little guy with the car weighing 3500 pounds total- not stripped, subs (because I'm a ricer) in the trunk, and a box full of parts/tools. RIP baby turbo, and let the Unicorn tuning fun begin...
@rfinkle2; @captain slow; @Mazda Love; @Voltwings; @JgamB;

[Jtaylor]

Good luck on your unicorn tuning, I am currently working with Rob and so far I couldn't be happier

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Jtaylor Good luck on your unicorn tuning, I am currently working with Rob and so far I couldn't be happier

Rob is an awesome guy and has helped me immensely. Without his guidance, I would've ZZBed indefinitely by now.

[Mazdazilla6]

Just another example of why I don't encourage running pre turbo meth. Meth is corossive. Don't run it on a silicone intake tract, get an aluminum one. The meth is definitely to blame imo, my last engine went 109k without an occ and im now at 135k and finally swapping the turbo.

What is your thinking on how oil would hurt the comp blade? The worst that comes from it is there is liquid friction, which isn't much of anything. The reason why you run an occ is to keep oil out of the combustion chamber because it alters afrs and quickly creates carbon deposits.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 Just another example of why I don't encourage running pre turbo meth. Meth is corossive. Don't run it on a silicone intake tract, get an aluminum one. The meth is definitely to blame imo, my last engine went 109k without an occ and im now at 135k and finally swapping the turbo. What is your thinking on how oil would hurt the comp blade? The worst that comes from it is there is liquid friction, which isn't much of anything. The reason why you run an occ is to keep oil out of the combustion chamber because it alters afrs and quickly creates carbon deposits.

I think the oil caused the intake to break down. I know it wasn't the meth that killed the intake, because it was already breaking down before the meth was added. It probably did accelerate it's demise though. When I pulled the intake to tap for the meth, it was soft and gummy. If I took my finger to it and pushed hard, it would peel right off. I think what happened is the meth dried it out and that caused it to come off in chunks.

My purpose in even posting this isn't to show people I ran pre-turbo meth, but more to show what happened. Until this, I haven't seen any pictures of actual damage caused by the meth, only people saying it causes damage. I wanted to see it for myself. Now you can see that yes, it causes damage.

[captain slow]

His thoughts were maybe the oil started the breakdown of the silicone TIP not the comp blades.

I saw the TIP, it's seriously fucked up. It was just falling apart from rubbing the inside of it.


Edit: too slow

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by captain slow His thoughts were maybe the oil started the breakdown of the silicone TIP not the comp blades. I saw the TIP, it's seriously fucked up. It was just falling apart from rubbing the inside of it. Edit: too slow

What I should do is cut a couple pieces of it off and soak them in oil and meth for a few days. That would help determine what happened. Heating would probably be a good idea also.

[captain slow]

Originally Posted by Gr8Speed What I should do is cut a couple pieces of it off and soak them in oil and meth for a few days. That would help determine what happened.

I'll take my shit apart this week sometime like we talked about. Same cpe TIP. Never ran meth and have had it on my car for almost 2.5 years and I bought it used. It's seen 30k+ miles from me, all sorts of hot, cold, salt and other dirt from our awesome states weather and roads. I just wanna see if mines breaking down like that.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by captain slow I'll take my shit apart this week sometime like we talked about. Same cpe TIP. Never ran meth and have had it on my car for almost 2.5 years and I bought it used. It's seen 30k+ miles from me, all sorts of hot, cold, salt and other dirt from our awesome states weather and roads. I just wanna see if mines breaking down like that.

I sure hope mine is a freak and just suicided, because I'm pretty sure all of the companies making intakes use the same silicone base.

[captain slow]

I never saw your TIP pre meth so I can't comment on that. There's no way that meth wasn't a factor in the deterioration. Now the question is how much of the damage to the blades were from meth or from chunks of silicone gunk. That white turbine wheel just looks funny.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by captain slow I never saw your TIP pre meth so I can't comment on that. There's no way that meth wasn't a factor in the deterioration. Now the question is how much of the damage to the blades were from meth or from chunks of silicone gunk. That white turbine wheel just looks funny.

I love the white turbine wheel. Soot build up adds friction which means it would spin faster right!? trololol.

But I assure you, the same shit was happening before the meth. As bad? I can't say that for sure. But it was already breaking down.

[Agent_Orange]

Anything slamming into the compressor vanes at 100,000+ RPM will destroy it on short order. Whether it be oil, meth, or pieces of your TIP.

I plan to ritualistically sacrifice my K04 in the same fashion once a replacement (BT) is had.

Gonna shove a d07 nozzle right down it's throat and fire!

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Agent_Orange Anything slamming into the compressor vanes at 100,000+ RPM will destroy it on short order. Whether it be oil, meth, or pieces of your TIP. I plan to ritualistically sacrifice my K04 in the same fashion once a replacement (BT) is had. Gonna shove a d07 nozzle right down it's throat and fire!

Going out with a bang! Yeah I figured with how little meth that was, it would atomize by the time it hit the blades anyway. The black on the compressor wheel is telling me one of two things, it's black soot from the meth (which makes no sense because meth soot is white) or it's silicone/dirt. When I take it apart hopefully I find more goodies!

[JgamB]

Well that sucks - literally. I guess I won't get to see my lil K04 abused like I hoped for big numbers.

If you watch this vid you'll see at the :55s mark, once you let off the throttle the backwash is pretty tremendous, and the droplets that form on the walls of the intake are certainly large enough to cause some impact damage when you get back into boost. Toss in some silicone chunks and it's going to be a bad day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaKpzgL4b9o

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by JgamB Well that sucks - literally. I guess I won't get to see my lil K04 abused like I hoped for big numbers. If you watch this vid you'll see at the :55s mark, once you let off the throttle the backwash is pretty tremendous, and the droplets that form on the walls of the intake are certainly large enough to cause some impact damage when you get back into boost. Toss in some silicone chunks and it's going to be a bad day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaKpzgL4b9o

HOLY FUCK. That's crazy shit.

And you will still hopefully see some relatively big numbers. I'm not giving up! Just will not be spraying pre-turbo anymore. I'm probably going to go to a larger pre-throttle body nozzle now and try to use timing to my advantage.

[Voltwings]

I think a lot of this is just "talk" and "theory." I don't mind admitting there are probably folks much smarter than I in this thread, but @kashbringer; and I used Pre-turbo meth with no detrimental results, and we ran his car HARD:

See here for those not in the loop
Built and Bolted... Stock k04. Possible record?

I know we had to have gone through at least 2 gallons of "blend" (2 tanks of various blends) in the 5000 miles we were running and testing these setups. We were using a 3.5" HTP intake, and the majority of the time running 80/20 meth to water by volume. The turbo had a few hot spots, which is to be expected from running it that hard, but as far as it being "broken" I wouldn't say so. The compressor wheel looked fine, no pitting or scoring in any way, but I believe we were only using a 1 gph, whereas the 150cc listed above is closer to 2 gph ( CC / 75.77 = GPH).

Despite running the D01 pre turbo, and a do7 pre throttle body, when the manifold got pulled the valves were FILTHY. I doubt much, if any, methanol was making it into the cylinders. This should go to show you that even with an abundance of methanol and water, this bitch runs HOT.

The combination of less spray, as well as less methanol, could contribute to our turbo surviving longer... or it was a fresher turbo to start, or the lack of silicone intake breaking down and potentially going into the turbo ... There are just so many things at play here, and seeing as how we ran our turbo slightly harder, I don't think pre-turbo meth should be ruled out as a viable power making option. I do however think we should monitor "failures" like this as well as successes though so we can do what MSF does best: Database this information for others who are interested and allow them to make their own decisions.

[captain slow]

@Gr8Speed; I just thought of something. You're also spraying pre TB. Your nozzle was in the cold pipe of the TMIC no? We didn't check that 90° coupler did we? Is that one also deteriorating? Not related to pre turbo meth but check that to make sure that isn't crumbling apart and heading I'm to your intake mani.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by captain slow @Gr8Speed; I just thought of something. You're also spraying pre TB. Your nozzle was in the cold pipe of the TMIC no? We didn't check that 90° coupler did we? Is that one also deteriorating? Not related to pre turbo meth but check that to make sure that isn't crumbling apart and heading I'm to your intake mani.

I've sprayed quite a few cars now with D07 nozzles and Devils owns Silicone Taps, granted they have all been running JBR "high grade" silicone couplers.

[Gr8Speed]

Cold pipe is beautiful. I honestly think the issue is the inlet.


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[kashbringer]

Pre turbo meth depends heavily on quality nozzles, check valves, and placement of said nozzle. As Voltwings said mine had no where near this kind of issue. What set up where you running other than the tapped silicon, crazy to think it was cracking and being pulled in, but very possible.

[someguy]

I've been running the cpe TIH for nearly 40,000km without OCC and it's still completely intact and not soft or anything weird. I doubt it was oil that broke it down.

[dooderek]

i ran pre turbo meth in all my turbos ;]

[skiptowncat]

Drugs are baaad, m'kaaay

[Gr8Speed]

Well, I went through everything. The only piece with a problem was the TIP. Soooo, I'm pulling the pre-turbo meth for now until I get a new one. My guess is still that the oil destroyed the TIp, which in turn destroyed the turbo.

[King Scumbag]

I pulled my silicone WP about a week ago. I have about 9-10k on in now. I was getting some serious oil in my TIP for about 7k miles before I realized it and changed my OCC setup. The material however is still as strong as day 1..

Does or can silicone absorb a fluid? Maybe causing it to break down with the addition of heat?

You live in WI so maybe the extreme cold temps mixed with hot temps while runing could have played a factor together?

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by SBMS316 I pulled my silicone WP about a week ago. I have about 9-10k on in now. I was getting some serious oil in my TIP for about 7k miles before I realized it and changed my OCC setup. The material however is still as strong as day 1.. Does or can silicone absorb a fluid? Maybe causing it to break down with the addition of heat? You live in WI so maybe the extreme cold temps mixed with hot temps while runing could have played a factor together?

Last night I scraped it pretty clean and am now back to hard silicone. The gooey residue seemed like a mix of oil and silicone, so your theory seems feasible. Silicone is a polymer. I'm no chemist but I paid a moderate amount of attention in chemistry 2, so I would think that oil could possibly get into the pores and that could've done some weird shit.


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[King Scumbag]

Originally Posted by Gr8Speed Last night I scraped it pretty clean and am now back to hard silicone. The gooey residue seemed like a mix of oil and silicone, so your theory seems feasible. Silicone is a polymer. I'm no chemist but I paid a moderate amount of attention in chemistry 2, so I would think that oil could possibly get into the pores and that could've done some weird shit. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wonder what "style" of silicone was used. I have never really read into the creation of silicone until recently. From what I have read there is certain types of silicone that will in fact soak up oil, lubricants, fuels, and other fluids causing the silicone to deteriorate under heat and I am sure the same for extreme low temps. Makes the material brittle coupled with the absorbtion of meth and oil.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by SBMS316 I wonder what "style" of silicone was used. I have never really read into the creation of silicone until recently. From what I have read there is certain types of silicone that will in fact soak up oil, lubricants, fuels, and other fluids causing the silicone to deteriorate under heat and I am sure the same for extreme low temps. Makes the material brittle coupled with the absorbtion of meth and oil.

I was told by CPE it is "chemical resistant"


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[King Scumbag]

Originally Posted by Gr8Speed I was told by CPE it is "chemical resistant" Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I could tell you,

my dick is "STD resistant"

but is it true..lol

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by SBMS316 I could tell you, my dick is "STD resistant" but is it true..lol

Exactly. I guess it isn't air resistant though. Because if it's chemical resistant, the air traveling through it sure fucked it up.


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[Mazdazilla6]

[Mazdazilla6]

On a serious note. I got bored at work yesterday so I figured I'd look into this a little bit and I came across this. http://www.silicone.jp/e/catalog/pdf/rubber_e.pdf

I still don't think oil is the cause for this. In the chemical resistance section it talks about resistance to oil and this is further enforced later where it talks about use in automobiles and it's resistance to oils. It also mentions how it is mostly unaffected by polar molecules. Methyl alcohol is a polar solvent. So now you're thinking well what could be causing this then?

I have two theories:

1. It mentions that when exposed to nonpolar molecules silicone can swell 10-15% in volume. It also mentions that when in a sealed area and heated It will soften. Keep in mind that 24 psi on a k04 creates a lot of heat in the turbo itself regardless that you are cooling the air. These two factors combined with it constantly being under a vacuum would cause the material to break away and enter the turbo.

2. I'm going out on a limb and saying you are using windshield washer fluid for meth and it has glycol or some other substance in it that is causing the material to break down.

PS I'd be willing to bet that the black crap on the comp blades is either oil or silicone or a combo of the two. Also I don't think that's what caused the turbo to fail. At 24 psi you are asking a LOT for a k04, the chra is already a poor design and spinning it that much, it's bound to fail fast.

(I wrote this out before and it was more detailed but then I timed out so if I remember anything else I'll edit my post)

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 On a serious note. I got bored at work yesterday so I figured I'd look into this a little bit and I came across this. http://www.silicone.jp/e/catalog/pdf/rubber_e.pdf I still don't think oil is the cause for this. In the chemical resistance section it talks about resistance to oil and this is further enforced later where it talks about use in automobiles and it's resistance to oils. It also mentions how it is mostly unaffected by polar molecules. Methyl alcohol is a polar solvent. So now you're thinking well what could be causing this then? I have two theories: 1. It mentions that when exposed to nonpolar molecules silicone can swell 10-15% in volume. It also mentions that when in a sealed area and heated It will soften. Keep in mind that 24 psi on a k04 creates a lot of heat in the turbo itself regardless that you are cooling the air. These two factors combined with it constantly being under a vacuum would cause the material to break away and enter the turbo. 2. I'm going out on a limb and saying you are using windshield washer fluid for meth and it has glycol or some other substance in it that is causing the material to break down. PS I'd be willing to bet that the black crap on the comp blades is either oil or silicone or a combo of the two. Also I don't think that's what caused the turbo to fail. At 24 psi you are asking a LOT for a k04, the chra is already a poor design and spinning it that much, it's bound to fail fast. (I wrote this out before and it was more detailed but then I timed out so if I remember anything else I'll edit my post)

I would agree with you on number one, except for the fact it was breaking down before the methanol was added. BUT, it does make sense that it wouldn't have broken off until it swelled. Until the methanol was added, it could have just been soft. When I added the methanol, the compressor blades were still in perfect shape. So this theory makes sense.

I am using 100% methanol, so no washer fluid. In an emergency I mixed a little washer fluid with some meth that came out to probably 75%-80%, but that was only for one day.

[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by Gr8Speed I would agree with you on number one, except for the fact it was breaking down before the methanol was added. BUT, it does make sense that it wouldn't have broken off until it swelled. Until the methanol was added, it could have just been soft. When I added the methanol, the compressor blades were still in perfect shape. So this theory makes sense. I am using 100% methanol, so no washer fluid. In an emergency I mixed a little washer fluid with some meth that came out to probably 75%-80%, but that was only for one day.

Ok well that definitely scratches off 2. I'm curious about 1 but I don't have time to test it. If I did though I would probably cut up a small piece of silicone, throw it in some oil and throw it on a hot plate/portable grill/easy bake oven, once it's hot have some meth in a spray bottle, take it out of the oil and spray it a little, throw it back in the hot oil, pull it out and spray it a little, put it in the oil, etc until you get some sort of result.

The main reason behind my thinking that it isn't solely the oil is that I'm pretty sure someone would of already had this problem if it was. Either way best of luck in figuring it out.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 Ok well that definitely scratches off 2. I'm curious about 1 but I don't have time to test it. If I did though I would probably cut up a small piece of silicone, throw it in some oil and throw it on a hot plate/portable grill/easy bake oven, once it's hot have some meth in a spray bottle, take it out of the oil and spray it a little, throw it back in the hot oil, pull it out and spray it a little, put it in the oil, etc until you get some sort of result. The main reason behind my thinking that it isn't solely the oil is that I'm pretty sure someone would of already had this problem if it was. Either way best of luck in figuring it out.

I have a new tip on the way. So I shall go mad professor on this shit next week.


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