e85 kr thread

[blakkat]

im getting lots of kr on e85, ckspeed thinks its fake, what are your opinions?
first two are before clint upped my timing and changed my wgdc, me and keith did a datalog and the first one had high kr but didnt record.

[greg08]

lol dude what spark plugs you got?
could be your spark plugs with seeing how freakin consistant it is
try replacing those first. i doubt its anything else. may be sound to

[blakkat]

Originally Posted by greg08 lol dude what spark plugs you got? could be your spark plugs with seeing how freakin consistant it is try replacing those first. i doubt its anything else. may be sound to

stock plugs, but wouldnt e85 be enough that i wouldnt need colder plugs

[wolly6973]

How much e85 are you running?

100%, a few gallons?

You said that you increased timing? You need to retard timing and see if it goes away.

stock plugs should be fine with your mods

[blakkat]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 How much e85 are you running? 100%, a few gallons? You said that you increased timing? You need to retard timing and see if it goes away. stock plugs should be fine with your mods

im running a 3gallon-3gallon so a 50% mixture.
clint aka @phate did my timing table for me, i dont know anything about timing and im kinda nervous to mess with it personally.

clint added timing and it didnt change anything at all, it didnt get worse

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by blakkat im running a 3gallon-3gallon so a 50% mixture. clint aka @phate did my timing table for me, i dont know anything about timing and im kinda nervous to mess with it personally. clint added timing and it didnt change anything at all, it didnt get worse

I know that Phate knows his shit, but if he is using a gen2 base map, you may ask him to start with a intercooler upgrade map..

In my experience, there are some changes in the modeling of the timing @ spool, and it seems difficult to start with a lower stage map and increase timing without inducing knock / remodeling part of the timing curve. (@ least on gen2 cars)

Your decay rate is a bit long too.

[blakkat]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I know that Phate knows his shit, but if he is using a gen2 base map, you may ask him to start with a intercooler upgrade map.. In my experience, there are some changes in the modeling of the timing @ spool, and it seems difficult to start with a lower stage map and increase timing without inducing knock / remodeling part of the timing curve. (@ least on gen2 cars) Your decay rate is a bit long too.

well he doesnt have the gen2 atr so we've been doing things over the phone. basically im targeting 18.5 psi, with an 11.9 afr. since we've started tuning. we've modified wgdc to hit my target boost, and this is what my timing table looks like,

37.50 37.50 46.70 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00
37.50 37.50 46.70 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00
37.50 37.50 46.70 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00
37.50 37.50 46.70 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00 55.00
24.50 31.90 39.70 39.00 40.00 40.00 40.00 40.00 40.00 40.00 40.00 40.00 40.00 40.00
26.00 32.00 40.00 40.00 40.00 40.00 40.00 40.00 40.00 40.00 40.00 40.00 40.00 40.00
23.00 31.00 37.00 37.00 37.00 37.00 37.00 37.00 37.00 37.00 37.00 37.00 37.00 37.00
15.90 20.50 26.50 29.00 30.50 32.00 32.00 32.00 32.00 32.00 32.00 32.00 32.00 32.00
11.50 15.50 20.50 24.50 26.75 29.00 29.00 29.00 29.00 29.00 29.00 29.00 29.00 29.00
10.16 13.25 15.40 20.70 23.35 26.00 26.00 26.00 26.00 26.00 26.00 26.00 26.00 26.00
8.82 11.00 13.19 15.30 18.15 21.00 21.88 22.75 23.00 23.00 23.00 23.00 23.00 23.00
7.48 8.75 10.97 12.43 15.41 18.40 18.80 19.50 20.50 20.50 20.50 20.50 20.50 20.50
6.14 6.50 8.76 10.64 13.31 14.00 16.50 17.69 18.78 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00
4.56 5.50 6.87 8.23 12.40 13.00 15.00 16.40 17.60 18.50 18.50 18.50 18.50 18.50
2.97 5.03 7.09 9.14 11.20 12.00 13.25 15.26 16.76 18.00 18.00 18.00 18.00 18.00
1.38 3.54 5.69 7.85 10.00 11.50 12.25 13.68 16.00 16.00 16.00 16.50 17.00 17.50
-0.21 2.04 4.30 6.55 8.80 10.00 11.50 12.49 14.00 15.00 15.50 16.00 16.00 17.00
-1.80 0.30 2.40 4.50 6.60 9.00 10.75 11.38 13.00 14.00 15.00 15.50 15.50 16.00
-2.80 -0.70 1.40 3.50 5.60 8.00 9.50 10.50 12.50 13.50 14.50 15.00 15.00 15.50
-3.80 -1.22 1.35 3.92 6.50 7.50 9.00 10.00 11.50 12.50 13.50 14.00 14.50 15.00
-4.80 -2.35 0.10 2.55 5.00 6.00 7.75 9.50 10.50 11.50 12.50 13.50 14.50 14.50
-5.80 -3.47 -1.15 1.18 3.50 6.00 7.50 9.00 10.00 11.00 12.00 12.50 13.50 14.50
-6.80 -4.27 -1.73 0.80 3.33 5.00 6.50 8.50 9.50 10.50 11.50 12.00 12.50 13.50
-7.80 -5.06 -2.31 0.43 3.17 4.50 6.50 8.50 9.00 10.00 11.00 11.50 12.00 13.31
-8.80 -5.85 -2.90 0.05 3.00 4.00 5.25 6.50 7.00 8.00 9.00 11.14 11.79 13.13
-9.80 -6.84 -3.88 -0.91 2.05 3.10 4.05 5.00 6.50 7.50 8.50 10.79 11.57 12.94
-10.80-7.73-4.65 -1.58 1.50 2.80 3.65 4.50 6.00 7.20 8.30 10.43 11.36 12.75
-11.80-8.68-5.55 -2.43 0.70 2.30 3.70 4.50 5.63 6.90 8.10 10.07 11.14 12.56
-12.80-9.65-6.49 -3.34 -0.18 1.79 3.75 4.50 5.25 6.60 7.90 9.71 10.93 12.38
-13.00-10.05-7.10-4.14-1.19 0.77 2.72 4.00 4.88 6.30 7.70 9.36 10.71 12.19
-14.00-11.05-8.10-5.14-3.00 -1.00 2.00 3.50 4.50 6.00 7.50 9.00 10.50 12.00


thanks guys

[wolly6973]

Looks like the timing is pretty conservative though.

I would definitely give everything in the engine bay a once over to make sure nothing is loose.

Does the kr always happen in the same rpm range, or do you get it up top as well?

[rfinkle2]

I see that, and was having a kr issue with running such retarded timing also.

I switched to a base map given to me with much more aggressive timing, and have been able to add a few degrees with no knock to boot (straight pump 93 octane.)

Originally Posted by wolly6973 Looks like the timing is pretty conservative though. I would definitely give everything in the engine bay a once over to make sure nothing is loose. Does the kr always happen in the same rpm range, or do you get it up top as well?

[Bucker]

I can help you too, brother. Gen 2 on 50/50 e85/93. Let me know. feel free to email.

wsbucker@gmail.com

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

I can't believe that this can be real KR. How can 2 gallons eliminate all KR on mine, and yet he can run around a 50/50 mix and have so much?

Also, I don't think that the kr is consistent. It never seems to be around the same number or at the same place. And the fact that adding timing did not exacerbate it, makes me skeptical.

Can injector seals fail on such a lightly modded car?

Just my two cents.

[wolly6973]

I was getting kr in the same region as you a while back also.

I added a few gallons of e85 and pulled a TON of timing and nothing helped.

Once I put the timing back to OTS values, it was pretty much gone except for a really small count every once in a while at spool up.

[rfinkle2]

Ask Phate to knock your decay rate down some.

The new datalogging rate makes it look like way more knock than is truly present.

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Ask Phate to knock your decay rate down some. The new datalogging rate makes it look like way more knock than is truly present.

im talking with blakkat now. Ill be sending him some revisions via excel including reducing decay rate and making sure his OL/CL transitions are on point.

[bewsted]

I'd bet on engine noise....


You have motor moounts?

You need to change try scaling your offset a bit....This is something that you really need to let someone who knows what they are doing mess with....

[blakkat]

Originally Posted by bewsted I'd bet on engine noise.... You have motor moounts? You need to change try scaling your offset a bit....This is something that you really need to let someone who knows what they are doing mess with....

yes i have a jbr rmm, shit man this is getting complicated, theres no way i can do this without fucking something up

[wolly6973]

You coming to the meet out in DeKalb tonight?

We can mess with it there.

[blakkat]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 You coming to the meet out in DeKalb tonight? We can mess with it there.

i live there man hahaha
'
@finkle, the only ic maps i see are all stage 2

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by blakkat i live there man hahaha ' @finkle, the only ic maps i see are all stage 2

That may be so, but you don't have to use the boost portion, just the ignition tables.

[bewsted]

I mean i'm not guarenteeing that it is engine noise but it does happen....

[bewsted]

ol copy to cl call it a day

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by bewsted ol copy to cl call it a day

What? I am talking about exit delays and max load stuff lol.

[rfinkle2]

BTW, I have to thank @atvfreek and @XLT_66's dyno thread for waking me up as to timing.

[rfinkle2]

I just looked @ that last log, and there is definitely something other than timing going on there.

[SSinstaller]

I run four degrees more timing than that at redline, and higher timing just about everywhere else...on nothing but 93 pump gas.

IMO you really need an EGT if your going to play with timing... Adding or subtracting 2 degrees may net 0 butt dyno gains, but raise or lower your egt's 200 degress. Low timing or very high timing will raise EGT's, and can cause KR..

Looking at those logs, the first thing I would do is bump up the knock sensor offset above 5K. KR of .06, .1, .2 above that rpm are almost certainly just engine noise..

[bewsted]

that is my guess too

[atvfreek]

I think you are running too little timing for e-85. I've even seen cars on 93 with too little timing have kr issues. Some of the base ots maps have weird ignition tables. What base map did you start with?

[Bucker]

ok, here are the basic settings that I throw at every map I make for me or anyone else. These are essentially just sensor calibrations and other shit to make it act consistently in most conditions. I have emailed this to blakkat and I figured I would make it available for you losers, too. This is a building block. Fueling/ boost/ timing will be built on top of this as per mods/ owners desires.

I would add timing, blakkat. I know Phate knows what he is doing, but at the same time he isnt going to just toss a 20* timing map on there without working up to it. I run the eth/93 mix with that much timing now with no issues. If you want to step that up, ill give you a modified timing table of mine.

[SSinstaller]

My KR offsets are the same everywhere except >1.5 load at 5000 I use .8 and 5500 .95. My decay rates are set to 100..

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller My KR offsets are the same everywhere except >1.5 load at 5000 I use .8 and 5500 .95. My decay rates are set to 100..

Yes, like I said this is what I use as a starting point. I am sure that a lower decay rate makes sense as well as the KR offsets, but I have found that these settings work for my needs. Actually, I might lower my decay rates now for myself. Once you have a tune dialed in pretty well thats a good call.

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by Bucker Yes, like I said this is what I use as a starting point. I am sure that a lower decay rate makes sense as well as the KR offsets, but I have found that these settings work for my needs. Actually, I might lower my decay rates now for myself. Once you have a tune dialed in pretty well thats a good call.

2.0 KR at 100ms decay rate takes 600ms to clear, that's a long time when a third gear pull is ~6.5 seconds. That being said if I was having kr issues I would leave it at 200 just for the added safety..

[blakkat]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller 2.0 KR at 100ms decay rate takes 600ms to clear, that's a long time when a third gear pull is ~6.5 seconds. That being said if I was having kr issues I would leave it at 200 just for the added safety..

still have steady 3 degrees of kr, fml. looked for loose shit in the engine bay and didnt find anything. im gonna try a stage 0 map after i run out of e85.if kr is still there ill just have to keep searching the engine bay

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by blakkat still have steady 3 degrees of kr, fml. looked for loose shit in the engine bay and didnt find anything. im gonna try a stage 0 map after i run out of e85.if kr is still there ill just have to keep searching the engine bay

Hey, if you copy your MAF scale over to the stage 0 map you can flash that thing with eth still in the tank. Sorry, should have mentioned that last night.

[wolly6973]

Just to keep the thread up to date...

We tried adding timing per the few theories in this thread, and got more kr. So that theory is untrue in this case.

Then we richened up the AFRs from 11.9(was seeing a .3 variance, so up to 12.2) to 11.6, and this did not change anything.

[blakkat]

used up all the e85, and ran straight 93, still getting kr around 6, plugs seemed fine, not indicative of 6* of kr. im dumbfounded

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by blakkat used up all the e85, and ran straight 93, still getting kr around 6, plugs seemed fine, not indicative of 6* of kr. im dumbfounded

Don't run that e-85 based tune on 93 octane if you can help it.

Where are you getting the 6* KR?

If @ wot, take it easy until you get your map straightened out.

[blakkat]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Don't run that e-85 based tune on 93 octane if you can help it. Where are you getting the 6* KR? If @ wot, take it easy until you get your map straightened out.

sorry i should have explained, i switched to a stage 1 stock map

[rfinkle2]

Are the 6* of KR @ wot?

Also, are you using 91 octane or 93?

[wolly6973]

He has 93 oct.

Other shots in the dark that were mentioned to me when I had my issues were to check the crank angle sensor to make sure it is seated correctly. If it is a little out of line, it could be showing less timing than you are actually running.

Also, like I mentioned at the meet. Try pulling the IM and making sure the kr sensor is tight. If you want, I can help you with that next week sometime.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 He has 93 oct. Other shots in the dark that were mentioned to me when I had my issues were to check the crank angle sensor to make sure it is seated correctly. If it is a little out of line, it could be showing less timing than you are actually running. Also, like I mentioned at the meet. Try pulling the IM and making sure the kr sensor is tight. If you want, I can help you with that next week sometime.

If Wolly6973 had a look @ your map, and is helping you with your hardware you are in good hands, no doubt.

I ask about the octane because it seems that part throttle knock on the 91 octane maps is common.