Why does your motor blow?

[bova]

Originally Posted by boosted3 My car was smoking for a couple of months at idle but all of a sudden it went away.Hasent smoked since.and i duno why it stopped

probably cause you had over filled on oil 6qts is to much stock should only go with 5.5. the extra finally burned off so you no longer smoke. i find this to be one of the problems that a lot of people over look.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by MadOzodi Took a while to read. I noticed on my way to work earlier this week, I was merging from one highway onto another after cruising and when I accelerated I got massive knock...KR reading on my gauge showed 7.3. I actually saw a nice thick cloud of smoke out my rearview mirror. Couldn't tell what color it was cuz my windows are tinted, but it reminded me of diesel exhaust. To add insult to injury, CELs P2187 and P0455 a day or two later. Thanks for posting your findings. Would you say that once a small "event" happens, there's no way to stop it since the damage is already done?

Thanks, there is a bad RPM to keep your motor at that causes the intake manifold to fill with out and it over comes the PCV system. I have confirmation on this from a Rally team overseas that runs the MZR motor.

Originally Posted by Cosmic3MPS Anyone looking into these issues deserves our thanks. Your comments make a lot of sense and I think you are on the money. Mine blew about a week ago under the exact circumstances you describe. Driving for about three hours on a highway, slowing down to pass through a small town, accelerating back up on the way out of town in 5th and kaboom! No 4 cylinder and fist sized hole through the block. Oil right through the exhaust and melted piston through the turbo. The event happened under such gentle acceleration that I think there is much more going on here than the 'leaning out' suspicion that has been blamed for so much. Really hope you get to the bottom of this one.

Trust me, your motor didn't lean out. Lean conditions booms happen under WOT and full boost, this is not a lean issue as you have stated. Rods bend from hydrolock, simple as that. We have some confirmation and we will be working with getting the new fix up and running on one of the locals cars here ASAP.

Originally Posted by stevessvt Would there be any outword tell tale signs of this happening? Like oil level going down over the course of so many miles? I have an 09, will you be looking in to any 09's to see if anything has been corrected on them? How many 09's have popped?

Yes we will, but I think that its gonig to be an easy fix for the car. Just going to be time comsuming for the customer to install (around 4 hours). The tell tale sings seem to be running the car for a long period at or around 3000 RPM. If you can avoid this RPM try to as much as possible.

Originally Posted by Scatt Nasty this kind of makes sense. I took a road trip to PHX about a week ago, its in the 90's there. After the trip was the first time since owning the car that I heard audible engine knock and hit a 5.9 on the AP.

This is what we are starting to see all across the boards, we have a fix started for the car, just need to get it installed and tested.

Originally Posted by ElBartoRex Hey PT- I know you guys have a lot of experience w/ the NSRT-4 and DSMs-- those guys run OCCs with an extra industrial check valve (not an OEM valve but a McMaster/Carr or Grainger) to contain the issue of the PCV leaking under boost. Have you ever done this on a MS3/6 do you think it would make a difference? All I see is MS3 guys running secondary stock PCVs. I have a McM/Carr viton seal check valve w/ .3psi cracking pressure ready to install with my catch can and I am curious if anyone has done anything like this yet. What about installing a secondary can on the VC/intake line? Anyone done this yet?

That is going to be part of the fix for this car, a quality check valve. I would not use the McMaster units because they have been proven to plug up over time. I have a billet unit that we will be offering here very soon. We have ran a check valve but it didn't get rid of the oil smoking issues. The second CC is not needed, I have yet to see any oil accumulation inside the turbo inlet pipe.

Originally Posted by smakdown61 Well I can tell you that before I got my catch can (saikou michi) I would get a good amount of part throttle knock and right as I was going WOT I would smoke puff out the exhaust. Ever since I put in the occ, rarely any part throttle knock and zero oil puffs out the exhaust.

Thanks for clearing that up for us, the OCC is going to be part of the fix for this application.

Originally Posted by BaseballD2 this is great info, so a baffled oil catch can, egr delete oil is still getting in the IM? Even you you clean it frequently?

The EGT delete is a must and it will be included with our kit. The EGR is playing a keep part to the issues with the motors going boom. Remember that the EGR works under light load and part throttle, we have found that the EGR runs damn near all the time when you are at 3000 RPM and under 33% throttle. I would be interested in seeing how many motors have gone boom with the EGR delete on them? This is going to be a key part to our kit.

Originally Posted by GQ_WhiteMS3 Well .. this is good news that we are seeing a likely situation ... but bad news if we can't get a fix.

I think we have it fixed, after emails from the Rally team that I talked with they had the same issues. They also shared a little bit of the fix with me (not all of it for obvious reason) so I hope to be able to pass this on to you guys as well.

Originally Posted by bova80 so is this puff of smoke good or bad off start up? cause right now if my car sits for the evening then i start it up the next morning i usually get a puff of smoke.

Common, its just the coating of oil inside the cyl's.

Originally Posted by Ghost Rider i would suspect that many people drive their disi mzr engined cars for long trips at cruising speeds. should not there be more blown motors, especially with the length of time some of these cars have been out (ms6)? if this is truly a design flaw on all of these engines we should see much more blown motors, yes? I would think with the number of so equipped vehicles this would be more prevalent.

Its a set RPM that is causing the issues, if you vary the RPM and or get on the car occationally that could be part of saving your motor. We ran with the cruise control on for 2 hours straight at 65 to 70 MPH. If its not hydrolocking the motor, then what else could it be? You tell me your opinions and I will entertain them, thanks.

Originally Posted by Crossbow I would assume that if there is a flaw, certain types of modding will "accelerate" the effect of said flaw, and increase the chance of it happening. There has been a few "stock" engine blown claims, but we all know how easy it is to "demod" a car rather quickly. For all we know some of those characters were running 20+ psi outta the stock turbo. Plus haven't heard of any of those issues in a few long time. My questions are of course... Was one of the car running the windage tray and a catch can? Weren't those two items supposed to help resolve oiling issues? And if one of these car's had the BSD, that's #2 blown BSD motor that we know of.

Yes they will, thanks. No, our car was not running one, we had sent it back to stock because we were getting rid of it (LOL). One car was running the BSD, but we think his car might have been hurt previous to the install. The knock was showing up before we got the BDS in the car, I think?

Originally Posted by Ghost Rider whoosh, were you fully built? did you push your car? I think there are too many people who are abusing their modded cars with out any noticeable issues, some with high mileage, to just say, oh, its all engines and it is a design flaw.

Whoosh was not fully built, he did push his car and push it hard.

Abuse has nothing to do with why this is happening, abuse will keep it from happening. Myself and others have tried to blow up there MS3 motors, I was getting 7 to 8 counts of knock 3 to 4 months ago (modded and pushing hard at 24 to 26 psi) I wanted the car to blow up, never did. It was only after I put the car back to stock and started driving it on a daily basis that the problem showed up and then, kaboom.

[rodrigo]

yo ptp. consider trying this JEGS Crankcase Evacuation Kit - JEGS

I have used in on 3 of my street/strip muscle cars with great results in the past. I dont deal with modern engines/turbos so I am not sure how it would vary ...... but usually the simplest way is the best way.

[Frequentflyer]

Does using a heavier weight oil play any beneficial role of mitigating this? ie: 5W or 10W-40?

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by bova80 deadman just took his car on a 6 hour road trip a month ago and was just fine. and yes whoosh was fully bolted.

Every car is different, just because you can doesn't mean that the next guy will be able to. There are parameters that are getting involved with the oil filling up the intake manifold and the EGR is playing a huge part in getting the oil to a vapor point. There is a lot more then just X causing the failure. I will get more info out there as we get it.

Originally Posted by TrueSleeper Hi to all. I´m new here so haven´t read other theads about this knockin problem. I live in finland and we have all togeher about 50 Mazdaspeed 3:s and about same of the Mazdaspeed 6 (they call them 3MPS and 6MPS here). I´we been logging knock retard among other stuff with my dashhawk, and driving on a motorway in 6:th gear I get Knock retard between 2 to 6 on cruise control at 3000 to 4000 RPM. But when I touch the gas pedal or brake, knockin is instantly at 0. I haven´t seen any smoke at all when knockin but I´m little consern about this. We haven´t had eny motor breakdowns here at my knowing, but does this sound similar what U guys are having. I know there are some differents between our and your models. Have there been any Mazdaspeeds blowing engine that are under warranty? I would think that Mazda would fix this kind of problem very quickly if something that big is wrong in our engines?

That is oil vapors getting into your motor causing the knock and the EGR working at heating up the intake manifold and its contents. We will have a fix for that here very soon.

Originally Posted by Speedn3 Well....my reason is because I've been in the garage trying to gather all my stock parts so I can demod and sell this POS. For me it's not worth it. Gonnna go ahead and take the hit on depreciation. Much cheaper than a denied warranty for a blown engine. Definitely appreciate your hard work though.

Thanks, give us a month and we should have a working fix for the car.

Originally Posted by 08_ms3_gt x2 - many people drive a LOT on w/e car they have. i'm sure plenty of speeds have seen plenty of miles. and this is freaking me out b/c i have a road trip coming up! a thought - what about the smoking turbo issue? at low/vac pressure, the seals in the turbo let oil past. let's assume that it's not only on the turbine side but also the compressor (engine) side. a lot drive at low/vac pressure would let lots of oil into the intake tract...?

The smoking turbo issue is related to our fix but the oil that gets pushed past the turbo seal is not going to enter into the combustion chamber, its after the combustion so its just going to burn up in the exhaust.

Originally Posted by Decepticon so cruising at around 3k range is bad for this car? how bout shifting at that range?...i know some have said that's no good either..

Right now, I am going to say yes.

Originally Posted by stevessvt So if it takes that much oil to hydrolock these, wouldnt it show up missing on the dipstick?

We were a 1/2 low when I checked it. It was spot on at full before we left on our trip. I don't think this is a burning oil issue, its a one time event when the oil is sitting inside the intake manifold after driving the car for XXX miles at XXXX RPM. The first time you get "ON" the throttle, it sucks that oil in one big gulp. This is the only thing that I can see would cause the rods to look the way that they do.

Originally Posted by ztuner IMO if oil was hydrolocking the motor you would have huge clouds of smoke behind the car not to mention oil residue (wet plugs) and missing. You would have several pints of oil in the intake and would be losing oil at well over a QT per oil change. Appreciate your efforts but Seriously !!! . Come up with a better theory. Harry I can under knocking due to oil contamination

Maybe you didn't read my post, there was a huge cloud of smoke behind the car right before the motor started making noise. It was big enough to cause the cars behind me to slow down. When we pulled the motor, lots and lots of oil came out of the turbine housing and the DP was coated with oil. This is not a burning oil issue, its a one time event that sucks a lot of oil into the motor and causes the motor to hydrolock. If you have another reason for why the rods look the way that they do, please offer it up. I don't see any other way that enough fluid could get in there other then oil to cause the pistons to look this way. Opinions are welcome, but putting down my findings is just childish.

Originally Posted by Deadman ron never had a problem with his ms6... not one as far as failures go... he beat the hell out of the car and it runs fine today.. I drove from my place to villanova 6.5hrs non stop one way, not to mention the driving i did while in the city.. I deleted the BS put in a baffle (OVER FILLED MY OIL NONE THE LESS) and i will be honest i see at most if at all .7-1.4KR at or around 3k rpm.. I have not seen it for months not once on the drive there or back... i agree with ztuner you would smoke the whole fucking road up... sorry but i dont like this theory one bit.

Beating on the car is better then just cruising around with it, it will keep the intake clean from any oil. Its not an oil consumption issue, its a pooling effect in the bottom of the manifold and poor oil control from the PCV valve system. If you don't like, then I will ask you as well, show me how something other then oil got into the cyl's and hydrolocked the motor. Please, anything other then my idea will be appreciated and taken with serious thought. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Snyeed I have driven my car twice to Colorado from Utah which is 6+ hours one way, I was Cobb stage 1+ and have no problems.

If I am correct that is not a flat non boosted trip, lots of passes and hills that require boosted (light boost I understand) input for the motor. If not, I am sorry and your lucky to have such a great car that doesn't burn or load the manifold up with oil.

Originally Posted by oncogene1 I recently took my car from des moines, IA to scottsdale, Az. it was well over 3000 miles through the mountains(high rpm driving and partial boosting because of it) and everything was just fine. I have since put another 3000 non the car and it runs perfectly.

Seems that the partial boosting keeps the cars from building up any oil.

Originally Posted by LBV After the initial 'oh crap, i gotta sell my car' hysteria went away and I thought about this more, I've got to agree with ztuner here. It would take a hell of a lot of oil to hydrolock a motor and cause a bent rod and you'd get all kinds of side-affects before-hand of excessive oil use as also mentioned. We may be getting pieces of the puzzle into place but I don't think we're there yet.

Tell me what caused it then. We know that (for a fact) that we cannot get enough fuel into the motor to cause this so what other ideas do you have? I am open to anything but as far as I can tell, its an issue with oil control and the PCV system.

Originally Posted by chrisyng thanks for raising the paranoia level to new heights with this thread.. In my opinion this theory is pretty well bullshit.. I've been on several straight 10 hr road trips.. cruising on the highway at 3000-3500rpm for most of the way.. never seen a bit of smoke, oil level never dropped.. This is on my ms6 that regularly sees 18psi with an AP... Aside from the type of fuel injection, and the strength of the internals, these blocks are really no different from the NA motors.. not to mention all the ms3's, ms6's, cx7's on the road of all years.. if this was an inherent flaw with the motor, and they are all ticking time bombs, you would see rampant motors with bent rods everywhere.. the community that are on these forums are jsut a small sampling of the total number of owners out there enjoying their cars with no issues... I appreciate the fact that you are taking the time to try and diagnose what's going on with motors blowing, however, It seems to me like you are the type to jump the gun a little bit with all these announcements ie: hp level limits due to DI, blown motors due to oil hydolocking, a simple MAF screen will solve all your driveability ills, with no real conclusive proof aside from whatever fame or status or notoriety recieved from the internet community.. WHy is the community not up in arms beating down mazda's doors, calling up the media askig for a recall because mazda is selling self destructing motors? instead the community is just sold more misinformation and products that try and "FIX" these issues... If my motor which now has 40,000km's decides to bend it's rods and self destruct due to it hydolocking from excessive oil.. I'll be the first to appologize and wipe the egg off my face... however I am just tired of hearing people coming up with more ill founded theories trying to figure out why motors are bowing up.. It's almost like religion as a whole.. not a whole lot of proof, just people willing to follow on faith alone because they don't know the answers.. so they will blindly take the word of whoever they decide is their messiah and cal it a day... This in my opinion is not good or the community at all. it is jsut going to continue making people paranoid overall about their cars, even if they have no need to be and jsut give these cars a worse reputation than it already has.. good going...

First, the DI is limiited and I am going to stand by my claims of 370 WHP with it. Until more then one unicorn pass is performed on a different car, its just one claim of one car making one pass on a dyno that has the smoothing set to 1. MAF screen has been confirmed by 4 people now, this is a confirmed part that I am going to deffend, untill you try it you have egg on your face, sorry. I have a theory on the MS6, they have a different final drive ratio then the 3's, if I am correct on this this could be why the don't blow as often as the 3's. It could be that bad RPM point that I am talking about that is building oil up in the intake manifold that the 6's just never see. If you have a better idea as to what it causing the motor to blow, I am open to it. Anything you think might have done this, please give me your input, if you don't... then what. This is an obvious hydrolock event, what caused it if it was not oil? Then what?

I didn't mean to scare anyone, but this is an issue that needs to be addressed and as far as I am concerned we are diligently working on it.

Originally Posted by Lex First of all, the part throttle knock people are seeing is due to the ECU's attempts to maximize timing at part load. Secondly, if oil was hydrolocking the motor, you would lose a lot of oil. No one is experiencing a lot of oil burning with these cars. If it was coming through the intake constantly it would be coming through the PCV and would burn all the time. If your theory is that snap vacuum would cause the cylinders to fill with oil, that is a little far fetched because let's say that the PCV valve allowed massive amounts of oil to be sucked through - then your valve cover would have to be filled with oil for it to have anything to suck through. This means there would be massive amounts of oil in there. The charred oil you see on the sides of the pistons is a testament of how hot the combustion runs in this car. This is why a quality synthetic is very important amongst other things. The rods that you are showing right here - what driving conditions did they bend under? I appreciate the work you're doing but I have a hard time believing that oil hydrolocked that motor.

You know that the ECU is doing this for fact, or is it just theroy that you have? Again, the motor was hydrolocked, tell me what caused it and all the oil in the exhaust side and we will look at it serious, if you cannot come up with anything else, I am going to stick with the hydrolock from oil. This is not oil burning, its a one time event that sucks oil into the cyls and boom. As we have pointed out the cyl's bent the rods in corresponding to the intake valve events from worse to near nothing. It had to come from the intake due to that "FACT" alone, unless you have a better idea.... if so please share.

Now this where I get pissed. You obviously have no idea how our PCV system works. The valve is not located in the valve cover, its located in the side of the block, this is why I am stating that the system is over come with oil, because its getting sprayed at a particular RPM and filling up the box that controls the vacuum for the PCV system, the valve cover has ZERO to do with the PCV system. Obviously from this statement you are talking about things you know nothing about, so from this point forward I am going to either delete you posts or ask you to do your homework before you post.

Quality oil has been used in the car from day one, so that idea or theroy you had on that is just that... theory. We have PROOF that the motor is lighting off under the oil control ring and even with "quality" in the motor there are still signs of it. I suspect that its fuel in the oil that is burning off but I have to wait and see what my ford buddy has to say about it.

The condition that bent the motors was very light throttle in 3rd gear, maybe 3 to 4 psi. This was the first time I had gotten on the motor in 2 hours of basic crusing. Last time, something caused the hydrolock, please tell me what you think it was vs shooting down my evidence that it was oil. Thanks.

Originally Posted by ms3077 Sometimes I get the feeling that some are just trying to sell more parts... I hope this isn't true but if it is, I'm glad I have the intellect to see thru it.

Originally Posted by Cosmic3MPS Honestly guys, I have done the long trip thing heaps of time where this did NOT happen as well. But this time it did! Just because you drove 6 hours and nothing happened is no proof your engine is bullet proof. Jon has described the circumstances of my demise perfectly. I look forward to seeing what testing can be done to confirm or disprove what he is saying.

Yea, thats it I am tring to sell you something. LOL, if that were the case I would have stated "here is your fix for blowing the motors, please pay $1,000,000,00 to my PP at xxxx". This is not the case, as it is with all the parts we have listed so far (not many but a few).

What we are doing is trying to get you guys an answer for why a forged rod motor blows the rods out so easily and what is causing the motor to bend the rods. I know that the cly had quench plays a part with this but what is getting into the combustion chambers causing the rods to bend. If I had been at WOT running 30 PSI I could understand what caused the rods to let go, I wasn't and several others have not been as well. Its a down low condition that causes the motor to suck a huge gulp of oil (so far I think its oil until someone can come up with a better idea). I will be working on a fix for the car for sure, and yes we will have it for sale, but not until we have confirmed that its working on these cars. Stay tuned is all I can say for right now.

Originally Posted by Deadman Yours blew? well then it wasn't from hydrolocking the motor due to oil.. Something else caused this or lead up to it. Did you see clouds of smoke before it blew? DId it miss ? There would be obvious problems leading up to this theory. Sorry i myself just don't buy it.

Yes we did see huge cloud so smoke right before the motor started to make noise, if you were to read my posts you would see that is why we think it was oil. There was a series of misses and as soon as I felt them I let off the gas, it was to late then came the smoke and lots of it.

Again, if you don't buy please offer something else up for us to talk about. Just shooting down my idea and not offering anything else looks foolish on your part. Please, anything that you think could cause the rods to stop in the bores and bend like this. I think we can agree that its been hydro locked, what caused it if it was not oil?

Originally Posted by smakdown61 This is a theory with evidence. I don't see how you guys can shit on it if you don't have any substantial proof proving otherwise. I don't see anyone else tearing their motor down to find out whats going on. If you have another theory to present, lets see some analysis and pics to show you actually put some effort into the research like ptp has. It may not be correct in the end run but at least hes putting in the time.

Thanks, I think the few that are trying to shoot it down need something other then " I don't buy it". If they don't then they should offer up there ideas or theory's. If they don't, it just makes them look bad in a thread where I am at least putting forth the effort to ID the problem.

Originally Posted by Deadman nobody is putting him down for it... his is just that a "theory" Thats all it is, he can rip apart 65 motors and still fall back on this i dont care.. Im just saying you can't put this ahead of any other theory out there. "The average temperature of a piston crown in a gasoline engine during normal operation is typically about 300C (600 degrees Fahrenheit) The normal temperature of gasoline engine exhaust is approximately 650C (1200F). This is also approximately the melting point of most aluminium alloys and it is only the constant influx of ambient air that prevents the piston from deforming and failing. Forced induction increases the operating temperatures while “under boost” and if the excess heat is added faster than engine can shed it, the elevated cylinder temperatures will cause the air and fuel mix to auto-ignite on the compression stroke before the spark event. This is one type of engine knocking that causes a sudden shockwave and pressure spike, which can result in an immediate and catastrophic failure of the piston and connecting rod."

So you think it was a temp variance that caused the rods to bend in order like this? I would buy this had I been under WOT, I would also buy this had all the other motors bent the rods under WOT. This is not the case, we have seen several that have bent rods and blown motors at cruise. So that idea you have is bust, sorry. You also have to understand that the shock wave would have to be prior to cly TDC and the spark event in order to bend rods like this. The pictures clearly show that the rods were stopped prior to TDC, this could not be caused by a shoke wave due to the shock wave not being initiated by the spark plugs. I can punch holes in just about every idea behind that, the big one... we were not WOT or in high boost. If it were WOT and high boost applications that were causing the issues, you would see way more motors blowing up from your claim of what you have posted here.

Originally Posted by Cosmic3MPS Dogmatism is a poor approach. Let testing reveal the truth. This is good work that is being done to help the community and I for one am grateful

Thanks, that is what we were trying to do. Its a work in progress.

Originally Posted by FORZDA 1 It does appear from these VERY limited view photos that this motor did indeed experience some type of hydro-lock event, and it may be the result of a completely failed PCV valve. Have you guys checked it carefully along with ALL other possible paths from the intake manifold (boost pressure) entering the crankcase? I say the main event happened under boost, not vacuum. There may indeed be a weakness in the PCV valve itself and likely so based on the number of folks collecting lots of oil in their OCC, but I don't see any evidence to support the massive oil sucking theory as a widespread problem from this single event. I DO however believe an OCC and frequent observation of its contents is always a good thing. I have ZERO concerns for my engine based on your teardown, but I MUST say thanks for this information and theory. Keep it up! FWIW, I took my old Speed6 to the dyno today and in put out 266.72/310.05 AWHP/TQ. Pulls like a freight train from as low as 2500rpm at WOT. Sheet posted up on 6Club shortly...

Yes, that was the very first few things that we checked. When we started the tear down and all the oil started to pour out of the motor, I though that the PCV system failed, all checked good, so I have to say it was a single event that rid the motor of all the oil when we started to boost the motor. Thanks, we will keep at it.

Originally Posted by bova80 John, do you have a picture of what the plugs look like that were pulled from this motor?

Sorry, I garbage canned them. I can tell you that they were completely black and a little wet on 2 of the plugs. I just though it was because we had to drive it on the trailer in order to tow it home and drive it off, but its something I should have taken a closer look at.

Originally Posted by yang_jackson contact the ford engineer yet? i appreciate all the efforts you have done in researching the probs our cars are having. it would be nice to get insight from a ford engineer inregards to your findings/theories. with all the theories flying around about why our motors are blowing,it would be good to get some input from an engineer from ford/mazda.i don't know much, but i think this may be a piece to the puzzle. with the numbers of speeds out there and the small percentage that have blown, im not sure how true it is that there is a design flaw, but i am glad regardless, im glad yall are working to get to the bottom of this. i look foward to hearing what the ford engineer had to say about this. thanks.

Thakns, and I should hear back from him today.

Originally Posted by Lex However, here's something to chew on. Most of us know that the Mazda 6 had a PCV valve that failed and caused blown engines due to oil consumption. The 6 however is not boosted and failure might not be as dramatic. If our valve were to fail, and you boosted increasing crankcase pressure (wth a busted PCV not closing under boost which we have seen through blown dipsticks) and then let off causing vacuum, it is possible that you could pull a significant amount of oil through the PCV system. COBB has a writeup about putting in a catchcan with a secondary PCV such that if the stock one fails, the secondary one will prevent the scenario I just mentioned. EDIT: On top of this the "smoking turbos" theory might also just be a bad PCV valve. This PCV issue might just be coming together.

Thanks, that is some very interesting insight that I never took a look at. The PCV system on this car was good but something could have gotten stuck or held the valve open during or trip. It could have just been that the vacuum levels were so high for so long that the system just worked to well, filling up the intake with oil. I will have testing happening soon to see if we can get this issue addressed, thanks.

Originally Posted by bnoon Nice to see another Iowan on the boards. Welcome! I've been contemplating different PCV locations lately, different PCV's from other vehicles (part number on that Lightning fix Haltech???) as well as putting my catch can back in plumbed into those different locations. Any hints on this testing setup that I can try and provide feedback on? I'm about ready to freak out on this car with the constant smoking... can't go through a friggin fast food drive through without smoking out the clerk... Mazda, fark yew!

Buddy, call me. I have something that I want you to try. It might fix the issues you are having with the smoking turbo issues.

Originally Posted by ztuner I have driven my car for 11k miles out of which 9 - 10 k are Interstate trips on I75, down to Naples and Up to Tampa. My car does not consume oil. On my last oil change the oil i removed filled up the same containers the new oil came in. I was maybe 1/4 qt down and thats most likely due to spillage and oil in the filter etc etc. Oil change was at 5 k. Oil consitence looked good to the naked eye. Next time i will get an analysis done. Honestly i think fuel in oil might be due to BPV's venting to atm. How many people run VTA ? Everytime you shift fuel washes down the cly walls thus contaminating the oil . Harry

This is not a oil consumption issue, its a one time event. I am starting to sound like a broken record on this. I would like to hear your input as to what you think could cause rods to look that way under a not WOT low boost application. Please, anything.

Originally Posted by chrisyng here is nothing wrong with theories.. proving and disproving theories are going to help in finding a definitive answer to the questions we seek.. the problem is with delivery.. Put it this way, a thread came up regarding the max hp limit on the stock fuel system.. a theory was put out as to why people were not getting beyond a certain power level.. however this theory was presented as fact... then another group came along and said they managed to make more power than what people took as gospel.. all on the stock fuel system.. so an argument ensues between the 2 parties. so who is right? allegations are thrown around about people making things up or not teling the truth.. this doesn't bring us any closer to the real answer.. Now this theory comes along about blowing motors.. again it's all in the delivery.. it is being presented in such a way that leads people to belive this is truely the reason why motors are blowing up... this leads to paranoia.. perhaps THIS particular motor met it's death because of this reason, but it does not mean all motors are going to undergo the same fate.. remember.. in this particular case, the car was the shop car.. it's undergone alot of different modifications, testing, generally put through alot more than the average car is going to see... I do find it ironic that there has been hype about putting in maf screens on the intake all of a sudden, how it was the best mod ever, and a couple days after the car it was probably tested on is dead... I'm not saying both are related.. just ironic.. It seems to me that the general trend has been for people to post up things as fact to try and legitimize their claim in being the superior mazdaspeed tuners.. that's my problem with it all.. the forum has alot of members.. with more new people joining everyday.. a majorty of these forum members may not be as up on automotives as some others and will read this stuff and take it as gospel.. then they spread it around to other people they meet and all of a sudden the general public has formed views about this platform which is just not true... much like the bad rap Rotary motors got.. alot of ill informed people believed in their unreliability.. that they all needed to rebuilt at 60,000 miles etc etc... generally untrue.. okay.. .I' ll come off my soap box now.. as I said before, I appreciate the fact that ptp is doing some fact finding as to what caused the destruction of this particular motor.. what they find will lead to better things.. but I still do not feel it's right to come out and lead people to belive that this will eventually happen to everyone ...

I still stand by my 370 WHP from the stock fuel system. There is "ONE" and only one car that has made these numbers, and it was one pass to boot. Until the details or more cars make higher numbers, I think my "theroy" is safe. I would like to see the relation between the MAF and the motor blowing made, if that were the case... we would have 4 others with blown motors right now. Yes the car has been back and forth, up and down, to stock 2 times and then modded again. This is about as stock at the car has ever been and I suspect that the fuel cut could have played a part in the motor going boom, but like I have stated several times now... we went on a long trip, got on it a little bit and boom. Nothing magic, not high boost, nothing, just boom under light throttle and the motor has been hydrolocked, no questions about it.

I am not here to make speculation, I am here telling you that the motor hydrolocked from oil and I am working on the reasons why, sure the delivery might be a big off, take it with a grain of salt and look at the big picture, not the little one.

As far as it happening to everyone, I would be silly to make a claim like that (read into if you want but that was not what I was getting at) which I didn't. I do feel that finding a solution as to why the motor bends the rods in the few that have had this happen would benifit everyone. Will it happen to you or the next guy, no idea, if there was a better way or solution to keep it from happening, I am sure you would install that on your car just as you would an intake or down pipe.

Originally Posted by ztuner THANK YOU. Add up 18 to 20 psi to 9:1 compression , very low timing at peak load and you equal EXTREMLY high combustion temps and pressures. Very good for efficiency no good for reliability. What needs to be done is testing on the piston material and the tensile strength of the stock "forged" rods. You will then see the need for stronger internals. IMO the upgrade path for this motor would be the following. 1. Strongest forged pistons you can find with ceramic coating (Wiescos come to mind) 2. Strongest rods you can find. Carrilos or Pauters 3. Lower CR by .5 to 8.5:1 4. Run richer + run more timing = lower combustion temps Then you can run higher boost. Also realize that on pump gas you can run only so much boost. DI or not you cannot change the laws of physics. Some good reading for you >> If anyone has the the following info you can calculate DCR. Remember or intake valve timing is adjustable / tunable so we may be able to compensate using that. Number of Cylinders : Bore in Inches : Stroke in Inches : Rod Length in Inches : Static Compression Ratio : (:1) Inlet Valve Closes ABDC : º Boost Pressure in PSI : Target Altitude : Harry

Harry, its like you just ignor the fact that this didn't happen under boost. It was light throttle low load. MY GOD!!! Its like trying to talk to my children. If your saying that high boost and our motors is bad, then I put this challenge out to you. Show me all the high boosted motors that have bent rods, or blown motors when going WOT. Then I will show you an equal to greater amount that have blown there motors while under cruise. I understand what you are getting at, and I appreciate what you are doing, but your application or theroy doens't apply to this. There are way to many running high boost and beating on there motors with out the effects I have posted in this thread. Your idea would show that going WOT is bad, so don't boost your motor or this will happen. This is not the case, several have poped there motors due to light throttle non boosted applications or light boost applications. Your going the wrong way with your therory.

Originally Posted by boosted3 I have 42000 mile son my car been fully bolted over a year and i drive my car hard since the first day.I gues sits just a matter of time.But the bsd is comingout soon and baffle goign in.Its been sitting in my room for ahwile.I would like to get a oil catch can but what is a good one to get.Tanks ptp for r&d.

I don't think its beating on the car that is causing the issues with the blown motors and I am really upset that the people posting in this thread are directing people like yourself to believe that. This is a cruise or oil control issue that causes the motors to go boom. We were not WOT when our motor came apart and if you look at the blown motor resource thread that seems to be a common issue with most of the blown motors. Our motor hydrolocked right after we had been cruising for several hours, there was a cloud of smoke and a big rattle noise that came from the motor. I let off, and then we had a lot of motor noise. Something got sucked into the motor that caused the rods to bend like this, it was not a WOT high boost condition that caused this to happen.

Originally Posted by ztuner PCV = positive crankcase ventilation. It is supposed to suck out oil vapors or excess pressure from the crankcase while the engine is running. On cars that are boosted you have to ensure that the pcv system is not leaking backward otherwise you can actually pressurise the crankase instead of venting it. On turbo cars there are 2 sub systems that work together. 1. Under vaccum a 1 way check valve opens up due to vaccum in the plenum and sucks the vapors out of the valve cover. The pickup for this valve is normally located between the throttle body and the engine itself. This works because when the throttle is only slightly open it generates significant vaccum in the intake plenum. At the same time the crank case pressures are at Ambient pressure or higher so the vapors tend to flow into the intake plenum. 2. Under boost the intake pressures are usually higher than ambient pressures (hence boost). This closes the one way check valve and the system in 1 no longer works, however there is another outlet on the valve cover that feeds to the inlet side of the turbo (intake pipe between MAF and Turbo). Since the turbo creates suction, it tends to suck out the vapors that build up in the crank case. This system works fine IF 1. There is not excessive crank case pressure - if there is you will end up with oil in the turbo inlet, turbo and IC) 2. The 2 outlets on the valve cover are sufficiently above the oil level in the head so they don't suck oil into the tubes instead of vapor. 3. There is enough pressure differential in either case listed above. This is part of PCV design and is controlled by location, tubing size, intake restriction etc etc and some designs work better than others. Once you start upgrading your car a lot of this goes out of the window. PTP is talking about the #1 system saying that the vaccum is sucking oil into the intake plenum while crusing due to a design defect in the PCV system. He claims there is enough oil loss to flood the combustion chamber with oil and cause a hydrolock. Hope this helps Harry

This doesn't help because our cars don't have the PCV in the valve cover, its in the side of the block. Our vacuum point is in the lower left of the intake manifold, damn near the farthest point away from the t-body you could put it. You did make me thing of something with your ideas, so thank you. The valve cover discharge is located in a very nice section that is baffled and keeps damn near every little bit of oil out of it. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Deadman so does having my valve cover dual vented to a catch can help any of these supossed situations?

Nope, the design is poor due to the current location of the PCV system.

Originally Posted by boosted3 I am just glad someone is breaking the motor down.What other ways can we control the oil as of now.The baffle and catch can and what else?What catch can is everyone using soi can order 1 asap

Get a divided CC with a media filter on one side. Our fix for this problem will come with a OCC that has just these attirbutes. Not sure when it will be avalible so if you cannot wait, get a OCC that has what I have stated, thanks.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Enki I may be way off base here, but if the engine is hydro-locking, then upgraded rods would only serve to pop the head off like a cork, or cause the piston to fail spectacularly, right? I mean the whole reason damage is done is because the piston comes to a complete stop on the upward stroke, which causes the rods to bend, as fluids don't compress like gasses do. From an analytical standpoint, it seems more reasonable to me that a decent quantity of oil sprays the piston on the intake stroke and causes detonation of the fuel/air charge on the compression stroke. Obviously, this would show the same end-result. Not trying to flame or start any fights or anything, simply attempting to provide a counter-argument to this thread. Thoughts?

Yes or it would crack the forged pistons (I think this has happend 2 times now to build motors?) or bend the rods. I think that Randy had some engine noise but there has yet to be anything posted on this. I would like to see if the motor had a bent rod or ???. Randy?

Yes the pistons stop before TDC thus causing the damage you see. No, the oil spraying on or during the intake stroke and then firing off would not cause rods to bend like this, you might see detonation or pistons breaking, but bending rods like the one's in the pictures would take a hydrolock. I appreciate the input, and I would suspect that you could see damage from your idea, but it should be localized in the piston where the heat and pressure would cause the damage, the rods bent because they were stopped from traveling up the bore anymore. If it would have been a detonation issue, the pistons would have shown damage equal to the rods, this was not the case.

Originally Posted by Frequentflyer Maybe this Ford Engineer can hang his shlong out on the table and say something to someone high up enough in the chain to get something done about this at Mazda? Ok, maybe I'm dreaming...

This is not going to happen, he likes his job and doesn't want to cause any waves with the higher ups. He might as them to take a look at it, then they can decide what they want to do.

Originally Posted by bova80 probably cause you had over filled on oil 6qts is to much stock should only go with 5.5. the extra finally burned off so you no longer smoke. i find this to be one of the problems that a lot of people over look.

Yes and that could be an issue as well. To much oil in the CC could cause the PCV system to fill up and start sucking oil into the motor.

Originally Posted by lenny127 yo ptp. consider trying this JEGS Crankcase Evacuation Kit - JEGS I have used in on 3 of my street/strip muscle cars with great results in the past. I dont deal with modern engines/turbos so I am not sure how it would vary ...... but usually the simplest way is the best way.

I have thought about this, but have yet to try it. I am afraid that it would suck oil into the exhaust system if we were to keep the stock location for CC vapors. It could be used on the drivers side spout thou, this would really help with ring seal and getting the pressure out of the top of the valve cover. I will take a look at this when we get a chance, thanks.

Originally Posted by Frequentflyer Does using a heavier weight oil play any beneficial role of mitigating this? ie: 5W or 10W-40?

It might help, but not enough to stop the problem. Its a design flaw, that we will have a fix for here soon.

[LBV]

Don't take it too personally John ... I think we're just all trying to rationalize in our heads the reasons (for or against) on this to see if it all makes sense.

Questions:

1- is the pcv valve not far enough from the actual oil level that it would be difficult to actually suck up oil? (maybe it is close? just wonderin')

2- would the oil catch can not be full of oil as well? Did you check that?

Thx ... really appreciate the tear-downs and analysis!!

[ptperformance]

Guys, I am sorry that it took me so long to get to your questions. They have all been addressed and I will try to stay in here to help out. Thanks.

[bova]

simple egr delete is what ron did by fabricating a plate that would cost no more than a dollar and then also buying a 1/2" NPT plug for on the intake mani. i've been waiting to install mine for a while i'll get to it one day cause last time i took the throttle body off the egr was real dirty and also seemed to have oil in it besides carbon.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by LBV Don't take it too personally John ... I think we're just all trying to rationalize in our heads the reasons (for or against) on this to see if it all makes sense. Questions: 1- is the pcv valve not far enough from the actual oil level that it would be difficult to actually suck up oil? (maybe it is close? just wonderin') 2- would the oil catch can not be full of oil as well? Did you check that? Thx ... really appreciate the tear-downs and analysis!!

LBV, understood and thanks. I just don't like being called out on something that I have taken my time to understand and try to resolve for all of you. I guess I would like to see people shoot it down with another therory, vs "its bullshit" and nothing other then that.

1. This is the problem, the stock location of the PCV is damn near the oil line of the motor. Its getting splashed by the motor and filling up the system. This is what we found out when we were testing the smoking turbo idea and I started a thread on that as well. We are well on our way to figuring out the problem and addressing it.

2. Sorry no OCC was on the car due to the fact that we had taken it pretty much back to stock, less the FMIC and new exhaust system, pump and clamp. I would like to see how many have blown under light throttle and were using a OCC. Next, I would like to see how many have blown running an EGR delete, this is playing a huge part in and as to why our motor popped. An EGR delete might become the next must have mod due to this particular issue of bending the rods and knock. I will keep you posted on what we find with the EGR issues, thanks.

[bova]

Originally Posted by ptperformance 1. This is the problem, the stock location of the PCV is damn near the oil line of the motor. Its getting splashed by the motor and filling up the system. This is what we found out when we were testing the smoking turbo idea and I started a thread on that as well. We are well on our way to figuring out the problem and addressing it. .

this is why i think only 5.5qts should be used and not 6qts unless you do BSD.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by bova80 simple egr delete is what ron did by fabricating a plate that would cost no more than a dollar and then also buying a 1/2" NPT plug for on the intake mani. i've been waiting to install mine for a while i'll get to it one day cause last time i took the throttle body off the egr was real dirty and also seemed to have oil in it besides carbon.

This plays a huge part in and as to why the motors blow. We have an even simpler solution for you guys, a cup plug that you tap into place and then you put all the parts back on. We have found that if you put a plate under the EGR it sets a code, no idea as to why this is, but our EGR delete at the intake manifold has yet to set a code. Need to get it on a few other locals cars before we can confirm this is working like we think it is.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by bova80 this is why i think only 5.5qts should be used and not 6qts unless you do BSD.

This is how much we use when we do an oil change, unless we are going on a long trip. Then I top it off to the max line. 6qts are a must if you have a BSD done to your car.

[bova]

well with ATR i'll just turn that code off, thats why i was going to do it that way.

[bova]

Originally Posted by ptperformance This is how much we use when we do an oil change, unless we are going on a long trip. Then I top it off to the max line. 6qts are a must if you have a BSD done to your car.

why would you want to put more oil in for a long trip, you might have sealed your fate right there if it falls in that your theory is correct. anytime i've put 5.5qts in its always at max line.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by bova80 well with ATR i'll just turn that code off, thats why i was going to do it that way.

Yes, if you have a COBB AP then you can shut it off. I also think that this plays a huge part into and why the AP has not had as many motor failures as those with out it. I think they turn it off with the 101 to 103 flashes, I could be wrong so take this as speculative. Thanks.

[LBV]

Originally Posted by bova80 well with ATR i'll just turn that code off, thats why i was going to do it that way.

Didn't think you could??

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by bova80 why would you want to put more oil in for a long trip, you might have sealed your fate right there if it falls in that your theory is correct. anytime i've put 5.5qts in its always at max line.

5.8 qts is what it takes to reach the max line with our car. We then start and re-check, normally its close to 6 qts after the filter fills up. I only filled it to the max line, but I also was not on a level hill when I checked it. That could be part of the problem, but I suspect that more motors would be blowing based on oil overfills then what we are seeing. The oil level was down to just above the add line when the motor popped. Not sure why other then the exhaust side was full of oil during the tear down.

[bova]

yeah you just go into advanced and uncheck the 2 codes related to EGR.

[Ghost Rider]

i am sorry, when going 65, in 6th gear the car is at 3k rpms. that is the typical speed for most highways. according to you this will kill the mzr.
how many engines have you inspected? what were the differences between them? how were they driven? to look at a handful of engines and simply state that this is the reason seems hasty. While I may not know engines to your extent i do know statistics and research principles and there are quite a few issues in regard to your statements. There are quite a few confounding variables here.

but if you are correct, shouldn't you be on the phone with a lawyer about a class action lawsuit? if the car can't be driven at 3k rpms, which it seems would be the average rpm for highway driving, there is a problem here

[LBV]

My theory on the bent rods months back was a forceful combustion wallop to the piston head due to mis-timing but I just threw it out as food for thought.

Timing would have to be advanced far enough for the combustion event to occur before the ideal time (like when it's still on the upstroke) and I'm not sure what would cause that outside of some bug in the ECU logic.

[rodrigo]

the spark plug fires on the upstroke (towards the end of it) and that kind of timing issues would present itself in the form of burned plugs , hole in the piston ..not bent rods.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Ghost Rider i am sorry, when going 65, in 6th gear the car is at 3k rpms. that is the typical speed for most highways. according to you this will kill the mzr. how many engines have you inspected? what were the differences between them? how were they driven? to look at a handful of engines and simply state that this is the reason seems hasty. While I may not know engines to your extent i do know statistics and research principles and there are quite a few issues in regard to your statements. There are quite a few confounding variables here. but if you are correct, shouldn't you be on the phone with a lawyer about a class action lawsuit? if the car can't be driven at 3k rpms, which it seems would be the average rpm for highway driving, there is a problem here

First, class action would take more then just me and the car would have to be stock and it would have to be proven with out a doubt that this was the cause. It would take millions in R&D to determine this, I am willing to invest the time but not the money.

Next, I have looked at close to a dozen motors that have blown or bent the rods. Some have sent me parts others have sent me whole motors. They all seem to have the same condition showing signs or hydrolock. How many have you looked at? As far as how the were driven, or how they were modded, no idea... but this doesn't take away that the motors appear to be hydrolocked failures. Unless you have a better idea with some pictures to back up your claim of why they have failed, you comments are moot and speculative at best. I think its safe to say that there is a problem with the systems we are looking at for sure, this is why we are looking at them. If Mazda will address this, I have no idea. I am not willing to go out and build a motor and put $1000's into it to have this happen again. I am going to address the problem and take it from there to save my built motor.

Again, if you have nothing to bring to the table other then "your wrong PTP" so be it, you will look childish in doing so with nothing to back up what you have to say.

Originally Posted by LBV My theory on the bent rods months back was a forceful combustion wallop to the piston head due to mis-timing but I just threw it out as food for thought. Timing would have to be advanced far enough for the combustion event to occur before the ideal time (like when it's still on the upstroke) and I'm not sure what would cause that outside of some bug in the ECU logic.

I remember when you posted that and I thought it was a great idea, but the problem would be all over the place, you would see motors popping out of no where. I would also think that the issue would be more up top and during WOT events vs down low or cruising events (like most of the motors have let go at). I cannot think of anything that would cause a missfire event like that other then the ECU triggering a missfire or a failure with the software. I suspect that Mazda would have addressed that with a flash even if it just found one event or failure like this. Not sure though, could be Mazda wants us in buying up new motors for our cars. Now hows that for a therory.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by lenny127 the spark plug fires on the upstroke (towards the end of it) and that kind of timing issues would present itself in the form of burned plugs , hole in the piston ..not bent rods.

I think it would deppend on how far advanced it was. Lets say it was just before or right near the injection point of the injectors. If you could start a flame with a low pressure point and the flame travels across the piston as its moving upwards, you might get a high pressure in the cyl over a very short period that allows the piston and head to absorb heat but bends the rod. This would have to be precise timing and I think it would only happen during one firing event, not multiple.

I would find it hard to see something like this happening with our motor due to the multiple bent rods that we had. But, I am willing to entertain anything at this point to rule out what I think the problem really is.

Thanks.

[ptperformance]

And how the hell did a few posts get placed above my original post in the start of this thread? Anyone find that odd?

[LBV]

I forgot to mention a boost spike as well in my theory but let's move on with yours ... makes more sense considering the events leading up to it.

[LBV]

There's been some funny shit going on the past few days with dates and order of posts.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by ptperformance And how the hell did a few posts get placed above my original post in the start of this thread? Anyone find that odd?

the forum time got messed up for a little bit.


P.S. if you have a BSD u should be putting in close to 7 quarts of oil.

[yang_jackson]

i really wish mazda would just pony up and help us figure this shit out. are they even aware? is this even a possibility?

[Crossbow]

M10 nozzle with a 70/30 mix

Throwing out the oil as a cause...the next culprit I'd guess would be excess water in the cylinders.

Can you disprove that the WI/meth injection was not at fault? ie, instead of trying to prove the oil was at fault, try to disprove that there wasn't a sudden surge of excess WI spraying from a M10 nozzle overloading the cylinders.

Both of those car's had meth injection right? We all know that excess water can hydrolock a motor like nobodies business.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by LBV I forgot to mention a boost spike as well in my theory but let's move on with yours ... makes more sense considering the events leading up to it.

I would have to say that you are on to something for those that have let one cly go, so keep on with that. It makes more, but lets keep with the thought that I bent every rod, not just one. You could be on to something, I just need to see more blown motors to verify this.

Originally Posted by LBV There's been some funny shit going on the past few days with dates and order of posts.

Thanks, I was wondering what the hell happened.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes the forum time got messed up for a little bit. P.S. if you have a BSD u should be putting in close to 7 quarts of oil.

7 qts gets the oil damn near to the middle of the motor when you place it at a 15% grade. This is to much oil and it will cause issues with the crank rotating assembly. Under heavy braking it will fill the whole PCV baffle in the front of the motor and the car runs like crap after hard braking (we found this out the hard way during a AutoX event).

Originally Posted by yang_jackson i really wish mazda would just pony up and help us figure this shit out. are they even aware? is this even a possibility?

Yea, and doctors should admit when they screw up. Its all about liablity, Mazda will never admit there is a problem, and I can just about say for a fact that they know about it, how... because the few vehicles they are involved with in the motorsports venues that they support or back as a sponsor. I am not going to get to much into that but I can say that there is something they know but are not sharing with the rest of the world.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Crossbow Throwing out the oil as a cause...the next culprit I'd guess would be excess water in the cylinders. Can you disprove that the WI/meth injection was not at fault? ie, instead of trying to prove the oil was at fault, try to disprove that there wasn't a sudden surge of excess WI spraying from a M10 nozzle overloading the cylinders. Both of those car's had meth injection right? We all know that excess water can hydrolock a motor like nobodies business.

That got rid of the knock and we run control solenoids on all our WI systesm, this keeps the residual leak down from the WI system under control.

Now this was not on the motor we have pictured, the motor in the pictures did not have WI running on the car. Pulled it off months ago. So that idea will not work with this motor. The other motor, maybe but there was nothing showing in the intake that we had residual in there. The other motor could have been hurt prior to the WI being installed. We suspect this because after we got the WI installed we hit the dyno, we couldn't get the knock under control on the dyno due to a possible failure that happened prior to the install. This is all speculation with that motor due to the fact that we never torn into it to check it out. My motor, zero problems with knock and no WI.

[ms3jake]

So lets say your theory is correct, what rpm cruising range do you recommend on the highway to be safe?

[Ghost Rider]

Originally Posted by ptperformance First, class action would take more then just me and the car would have to be stock and it would have to be proven with out a doubt that this was the cause. It would take millions in R&D to determine this, I am willing to invest the time but not the money. Next, I have looked at close to a dozen motors that have blown or bent the rods. Some have sent me parts others have sent me whole motors. They all seem to have the same condition showing signs or hydrolock. How many have you looked at? As far as how the were driven, or how they were modded, no idea... but this doesn't take away that the motors appear to be hydrolocked failures. Unless you have a better idea with some pictures to back up your claim of why they have failed, you comments are moot and speculative at best. I think its safe to say that there is a problem with the systems we are looking at for sure, this is why we are looking at them. If Mazda will address this, I have no idea. I am not willing to go out and build a motor and put $1000's into it to have this happen again. I am going to address the problem and take it from there to save my built motor. Again, if you have nothing to bring to the table other then "your wrong PTP" so be it, you will look childish in doing so with nothing to back up what you have to say.

I am not sure why you think I am being childish, but whatever. I am sorry that I question things instead of just believing what I am told. For the record I have never said you are wrong or posited my own theory, I simply brought up the questions I have, something I thought you were looking for with this thread. Why you are so defensive about this is beyond me, I do not believe I have been rude or childish in anyway. As you state it would take a lot more to prove your theory beyond a doubt which I think more than justifies my own questioning.

You said that the way they are driven and their mods do not take away from the hydrolock theory; but they do complicate the matter of saying it is the oil, does it not? What if some were equipped with CAI and driven through deep puddles. Perhaps they were missing the plastic undertray. This is a plausible cause for hydrolock, yes? Can you rules this out as a possibility? What about the meth/wi thread? is that another possibility?

These questions are not meant to piss you off or take away from your theory; they are legitimate questions I have.

And, while I am not accusing you of doing something improper or lying, it is important to remember that you are someone looking to sell parts and make money. I think as a consumer it makes sense for me to bring up any questions I may have.

Regardless, I am done with this, as you seem to be overly defensive and feel the need to call me names. I know this means nothing to you, but I am not too inclined to support a business that feels a need to insult me when I ask questions.

I thank you for your work and wish you the best of luck.

[Frequentflyer]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Yea, and doctors should admit when they screw up. Its all about liablity, Mazda will never admit there is a problem, and I can just about say for a fact that they know about it, how... because the few vehicles they are involved with in the motorsports venues that they support or back as a sponsor. I am not going to get to much into that but I can say that there is something they know but are not sharing with the rest of the world.

Well considering Mazda blessed the 2010 MS3 with the same exact motor, this problem is gonna go on for years to come unless they've updated the PCV system in the new car, which I doubt.

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by lenny127 View Post
"yo ptp. consider trying this JEGS Crankcase Evacuation Kit - JEGS

I have used in on 3 of my street/strip muscle cars with great results in the past. I dont deal with modern engines/turbos so I am not sure how it would vary ...... but usually the simplest way is the best way.
I have thought about this, but have yet to try it. I am afraid that it would suck oil into the exhaust system if we were to keep the stock location for CC vapors. It could be used on the drivers side spout thou, this would really help with ring seal and getting the pressure out of the top of the valve cover. I will take a look at this when we get a chance, thanks. "


john, if the concern is pulling oil, u can certainly make an encased baffle system that allows to pull up air but oil wont be able to "climb" out of.

[Scatt Nasty]

I know the answer to the OP's question. Too much meth.

[Tcman2006]

so is this motor issue happening with the cx7 also?

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by ms3jake So lets say your theory is correct, what rpm cruising range do you recommend on the highway to be safe?

I have no idea, I can tell you that 2900 to 3400 RPM seems to be the issue with the motors going boom, and that also relates to the effects of oil vapors and turbo seal issue. Anything I stated would simply be a guess, so I cannot give you "this RPM is safe", not yet anyways.

Originally Posted by Ghost Rider I am not sure why you think I am being childish, but whatever. I am sorry that I question things instead of just believing what I am told. For the record I have never said you are wrong or posited my own theory, I simply brought up the questions I have, something I thought you were looking for with this thread. Why you are so defensive about this is beyond me, I do not believe I have been rude or childish in anyway. As you state it would take a lot more to prove your theory beyond a doubt which I think more than justifies my own questioning. You said that the way they are driven and their mods do not take away from the hydrolock theory; but they do complicate the matter of saying it is the oil, does it not? What if some were equipped with CAI and driven through deep puddles. Perhaps they were missing the plastic undertray. This is a plausible cause for hydrolock, yes? Can you rules this out as a possibility? What about the meth/wi thread? is that another possibility? These questions are not meant to piss you off or take away from your theory; they are legitimate questions I have. And, while I am not accusing you of doing something improper or lying, it is important to remember that you are someone looking to sell parts and make money. I think as a consumer it makes sense for me to bring up any questions I may have. Regardless, I am done with this, as you seem to be overly defensive and feel the need to call me names. I know this means nothing to you, but I am not too inclined to support a business that feels a need to insult me when I ask questions. I thank you for your work and wish you the best of luck.

You never posted a question, you challenged what I was claiming and my findings. You don't have your own therorys but are willing to challenge or question mine? I am sorry, but if you don't have something to add don't have a questions (question being your not challenging what I am saying at every turn) then what are you adding to the conversation. If you counfused go through and look at your posts, they are not "hey, what about this, or what about that", they are more like, "your wrong and this is why". If you don't have some sort of useful idea/question, then quit with tring to find fault in our findings.

I am going to agree with you on the other blown motors, there is a lot of speculation that goes into those, I can only tell you what my motor did. I did not drive it through a puddle, I did not suck anything into my CAI, and I don't have WI on the motor. Next, the few that have taken there motors down to see what happend and the parts that I have inspected have not shown signs of water ingestion nor any damage to the top of the pistons. This would be a good cause to show that these motors hydrolocked as well. Hence, why I am stating that it was an oil condition but I cannot rule out other forms of hydrolock with others cars.

Last, if I were going to call names you would have known it. I an not known for holding back when someone is being a tool. Childish is not calling names and if you feel that it is, I would move away from the forums.... a lot of name calling happens in them.

Take care and if you have questions, ask them but don't try to punch holes in my findings unless you have some findings of your own you would like to share. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Frequentflyer Well considering Mazda blessed the 2010 MS3 with the same exact motor, this problem is gonna go on for years to come unless they've updated the PCV system in the new car, which I doubt.

I want to see one ASAP so I can check the PCV system. I would also be willing to bet that they made changes to it.

Originally Posted by lenny127 Originally Posted by lenny127 View Post "yo ptp. consider trying this JEGS Crankcase Evacuation Kit - JEGS I have used in on 3 of my street/strip muscle cars with great results in the past. I dont deal with modern engines/turbos so I am not sure how it would vary ...... but usually the simplest way is the best way. I have thought about this, but have yet to try it. I am afraid that it would suck oil into the exhaust system if we were to keep the stock location for CC vapors. It could be used on the drivers side spout thou, this would really help with ring seal and getting the pressure out of the top of the valve cover. I will take a look at this when we get a chance, thanks. " john, if the concern is pulling oil, u can certainly make an encased baffle system that allows to pull up air but oil wont be able to "climb" out of.

Working on that, I think with the VC design it will not be an issue we have to deal with.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Tcman2006 so is this motor issue happening with the cx7 also?

Not that I know of, I will be looking at one of those this week. I will post back on the findings of the PCV system and a few other things.