The E85 and E85 Mix *Ignition Timing* Database

[phate]

This will be for DYNO VERIFIED ignition timing curves. Not Virtual Dyno, but a real life dyno where you strapped the car down and had someone made of pure awesome tune your car. If you dyno tuned your own car, you are apparently made of pure awesome.

I will arrange this by ethanol content, and I will keep this thread updated as people post up their DYNO PROVEN timing curves. We don't mean "3 pulls" proven. We mean you actually increased and/or decreased timing to figure out whether you were gaining power or were at or beyond MBT: aka TUNING. So when you post it up, let us know your methods of verifying your curve. If you just walked it up and let it ride somewhere, then let us know, that's important. Let us know if you were knock limited, or whether you found actual mbt, where power drops off. The more info, the better. Thanks to all current and future contributors of this thread.




E85 - phate - Summer Blend - K04/CPE CAI/Catless DP/PG TIP/KMD Internals/Fidanza Flywheel - Almost sea level - MBT was found .5-1° beyond this curve, as this is what I actually run on a daily basis.

2500     3000    3500     4000     4500     5000     5500     6000     6500     7000
-1.00    8.00    10.00    11.50    13.00    16.50    19.50    22.00    24.00    Unk

Note: The low 2,500 rpm timing figure is due to kr being dragged through entire rpm range because my car is noisy.

E85 - @mazdafreak - Summer Blend - K04/SRI/Catless DP/TIP - Almost sea level - MBT was found 1-2° beyond this curve

2500     3000    3500     4000     4500     5000     5500     6000     6500     7000
Unk      6.00    9.00     11.00    13.00    15.50    18.00    20.00    22.00    24.00

Note: Approx 22psi tapering to 17psi.

E85 - @mazdafreak - Summer Blend - K04/SRI/Catless DP/TIP/PnP Intake Mani/Cobb FMIC/Tubular Exh Mani - Almost sea level - MBT was found 1-2° beyond this curve

2500     3000    3500     4000     4500     5000     5500     6000     6500     7000
Unk      4.00    7.00      9.00    11.00    13.50    16.00    18.00    20.00    22.00

Note: Approx 23.5psi tapering to 17psi. One year after original dyno tune with all extra parts. Car made no additional power from prior year, and was more finicky with boost control.


E42.5 (50/50) - @driver311 - Summer Blend - atp gtx3071 22psi/dnp mani/ported intake mani/full catted 80mm exhaust/cpe inlet/atp 3in intake/ptp internals/txs fmic/ts hybrid valve - 2700ft elevation

2500     3000     3500    4000     4500     5000     5500     6000     6500     7000
Unk      -1.00    2.00    7.50    10.00     11.50    13.50    15.50    17.50    19.50

Note: MBT was NOT found with this dyno session. Power was still being gained with the last addition of timing, so MBT is somewhere beyond these figures.


E42.5 (50/50) - @onetechguy - Summer Blend - K04/Cobb catted DP/Cobb Intake/TIP - Almost sea level

2500     3000     3500    4000     4500     5000     5500     6000     6500     7000
Unk      2.50     4.50    6.50    10.00     13.25    15.50    18.50    20.00    23.00

Note: MBT was found 1.5-2° beyond this curve for 4,000+ rpm. Boost was approx 20psi tapering to 17psi

E42.5 (50/50) - @Travis - Summer Blend - K04/Catless DP/Cobb SRI/CPE TIP - Almost sea level

2500     3000     3500    4000     4500     5000     5500     6000     6500     7000
Unk      3.50     5.50    8.00    11.00     14.00    17.00    19.00    22.00    24.50

Note: MBT was found 1.5-2° beyond this curve for 4,000+ rpm. Boost was approx 22psi tapering to 17psi


E42.5 (50/50) - @forcedinduktion - Summer Blend - K04/Catless DP/Intake/TIP - Almost sea level

2500     3000     3500    4000     4500     5000     5500     6000     6500     7000
Unk      3.50     5.50    7.25     9.00     11.50    14.50    16.50    19.00    21.50

Note: MBT was found 1.5-2° beyond this curve for 4,000+ rpm. Boost was approx 21psi tapering to 17psi


E42.5 (50/50) - @JTMS3 - Summer Blend - K04/Catted DP/Intake/TIP/Big ass FMIC - Almost sea level

2500     3000     3500    4000     4500     5000     5500     6000     6500     7000
Unk      3.00     5.50    8.00     10.00    13.50    16.50    19.00    22.00    24.00

Note: MBT was found 1.5-2° beyond this curve for 4,000+ rpm. Boost was approx 21psi tapering to 17psi


E41 (5/7) - @hamptotl - Winter Blend - K04/DP/CAI/TP/ETS TMIC/KMD internals - Approx sea level - MBT was found 2° beyond this curve for the 4k+ range, but backed off for safety margin

2500      3000     3500    4000     4500     5000     5500     6000     6500     7000
1.00      4.00     6.00    9.00     12.00    16.00    17.00    18.00    20.00    22.00

Note: 20psi tapering to 16.5 @ redline. 11.8:1 AFR


E37 (50/50) - @nextgenerationx1 - Winter Blend - K04/Catted CPE DP/SRI/TIP/ETS TMIC/KMD internals - Approx sea level - MBT was found 2° beyond this curve for the 3K+ range, but backed off for safety margin

2500      3000     3500    4000     4500     5000     5500     6000     6500     7000
0.00      4.00     6.50    8.50     10.50    13.00    16.00    18.00    20.00    22.50

Note: 21psi tapering to 17 @ redline. 11.5:1 AFR

[driver311]

This is from my street map verified on the dyno to keep making power across the board with these settings. I stopped due to time restraints and plan on going back again soon with a few new additions on the car and finding out how far I can take it with no meth and 50% e85. Though from 4000+ my car still gained over 5whp across the board with my last timing adjustment. I was going up 1 degree at a time and letting car cool in between sessions for the same amount of time each pull. I finished this day at 22psi making 380whp uncorrected at 2700ft. on 50% e85. Ill also mention at 20psi i had timing 2 degrees higher and only made 10whp less. But I put boost up to where I was gonna run it and started timing off a lil lower then worked up. So there could be a lil more in it at 22psi, but with Dustins advice as I raised boost I backed timing off and worked back up. Unfortunately it cost me more time and I didnt finish that day. Im sure its pretty close though. When I go back Ill have pressure up from 1850 to 2150 and hoping for the best. Where i peak is where I peak. This is the setup I plan on running and dont truely seeing this car need anymore than what it will do. Cars already worthless on the street as it is. LOL Hoping that I have enough fuel for 410-420whp on 24psi uncorrected and Ill be more than happy but if it dont then ohhh well. I did run 118-120mph traps on 370-380whp uncorrected sooo i guess Ill have to live with it. LOL Here are those numbers. Keep up the good work gents.

Mods, 50% e85, atp gtx3071 22psi, dnp mani, ported intake mani, full catted 80mm exhaust, cpe inlet, atp 3in intake, ptp internals, txs fmic, and a ts hybrid valve

3000 -1
3500 2
4000 7.5
4500 10
5000 11.5
5500 13.5
6000 15.5
6500 17.5
7000 19.5

[kmac]

No e85 here , but meth .
93 and meth is with out looking at my tune is.
I know total is 24 and on meth my limiter is set to 7800 and I shift anywhere from 7600 to 7800. With the new setup it revs clean and I no longer peg the maf sensor.
If we had bigger inj I would run e85.

[phate]

@driver311 - Thanks for the info. I think I will put a note next to those who dyno tuned, but did not find MBT. You were still finding power, and I agree it had more left. Thanks for the info.

[Enki]

I ran similar timing to Driver311 (within a degree or so) stock turbo on 3 gallon mix. No idea what it put down, but I'll find out after I get the pump issues sorted.

[Bucker]

3.50	6.00	8.00	10.50	12.50	14.50	16.00	18.00	19.00	20.00

For what it's worth, this is my current timing curve (from 2500+) on a 50/50 e85/93 octane mix. This has NOT been dyno verified yet on my car, but it is similar to a couple of e85 mix COBB tunes they have released. I usually do not take e tunes this far, but rather stop .5-1* short of this curve.

[driver311]

Originally Posted by phate @driver311 - Thanks for the info. I think I will put a note next to those who dyno tuned, but did not find MBT. You were still finding power, and I agree it had more left. Thanks for the info.

This was on summer blend. My tuned started being off last month. I simply went from 6g/6g to 7g/6g and it got me real close. Car pulls hard and my dyno numbers dont do the car justice.

[speedms6]

out of curiousity, how come you guys are running low timing around 3000 and then such a jump?

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by speedms6 out of curiousity, how come you guys are running low timing around 3000 and then such a jump?

Spoolup.


Tapadatass

[speedms6]

Originally Posted by silvapain Spoolup. Tapadatass

oh yes, this is the more intake valve advance, less timing increases spool up, but less intake advance more timing increase power? but also if i remember you cant run as much timing up top with less intake advance?

[GoSpeed3Go]

Originally Posted by Bucker 3.50 6.00 8.00 10.50 12.50 14.50 16.00 18.00 19.00 20.00 For what it's worth, this is my current timing curve (from 2500+) on a 50/50 e85/93 octane mix. This has NOT been dyno verified yet on my car, but it is similar to a couple of e85 mix COBB tunes they have released. I usually do not take e tunes this far, but rather stop .5-1* short of this curve.

where can i find said tunes? id like to have and compare what ive been working with.

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by GoSpeed3Go where can i find said tunes? id like to have and compare what ive been working with.

If you are referring to the COBB tunes, I will have to search around for them but they simply posted Dyno results and their timing maps for us to compare.

EDIT:

Here is one.

276HP/318TQ - Cobb AWD Mustang Dyno

[hamptotl]

Alright Today was a Dyno day for this guy.

Got the car on the rollers to find out what power was looking like. I tuned my timing today and I have to say the car feels great. I will now shut up and get to the good stuff.

Mods. DP, CAI, TP ETS TMIC, and KMD internals. No catback, intake or exhaust mani.
Running a 5/7 E85 to 93 mix. I got these numbers by pushing timing to MBT and then backing them off 2 degrees.

from 2500 they are as follows:

-6.09, -1.90, 3.50, 8.00, 13.00, 15.00, 17.00, 18.00, 20.00, 21.00

Also I run 20 PSI tapering to 16.5 by redline and an 11.8 AFR

Final numbers of the day: 316WHP and 350 FT/LBS No complaints coming from this guy

[phate]

Thanks man. I have to assume you guys are on E70 winter blend out there, so roughly E41. I'll update the first post.

[hamptotl]

yep def winter blend and awesome glad I could help lol.

[Lex]

MBT will depend on several things including modifications, temperature, boost pressure, turbo used, etc. so that should be kept in mind.

When you guys talk about MBT, you are talking about the car's torque dropping correct? Not reaching the knock threshold? Because the two should be distinguished - for example did Driver run into KR and that's why he stopped adding timing?

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by hamptotl Alright Today was a Dyno day for this guy. Got the car on the rollers to find out what power was looking like. I tuned my timing today and I have to say the car feels great. I will now shut up and get to the good stuff. Mods. DP, CAI, TP ETS TMIC, and KMD internals. No catback, intake or exhaust mani. Running a 5/7 E85 to 93 mix. I got these numbers by pushing timing to MBT and then backing them off 2 degrees. from 2500 they are as follows: -6.09, -1.90, 3.50, 8.00, 13.00, 15.00, 17.00, 18.00, 20.00, 21.00 Also I run 20 PSI tapering to 16.5 by redline and an 11.8 AFR Final numbers of the day: 316WHP and 350 FT/LBS No complaints coming from this guy

Are you running meth too, or just the e mix?

[phate]

Originally Posted by Lex MBT will depend on several things including modifications, temperature, boost pressure, turbo used, etc. so that should be kept in mind. When you guys talk about MBT, you are talking about the car's torque dropping correct? Not reaching the knock threshold? Because the two should be distinguished - for example did Driver run into KR and that's why he stopped adding timing?

Yes, my assumption here is that we are all talking about reaching actual MBT, not being limited by KR. [I never saw kr past MBT]. @hamptotl, correct? Driver311 did not reach either kr or mbt, as my note above suggests. He was still gaining power without hitting kr, but he didn't have enough time to continue testing.

I'm trying to include as much relevant info as possible in terms of turbo/mods/elevation/mix ratio, etc, since they all have an effect on what optimal timing [mbt] is.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Lex MBT will depend on several things including modifications, temperature, boost pressure, turbo used, etc. so that should be kept in mind. When you guys talk about MBT, you are talking about the car's torque dropping correct? Not reaching the knock threshold? Because the two should be distinguished - for example did Driver run into KR and that's why he stopped adding timing?

Not pushed to the point where torque drops... but to the point where it no longer increases. At least that's my definition of MBT.

And I would say 90% of the cars on e-mix won't be knock limited... at least those running higher mixes. But from what i've seen, even 2 gal mixes increase the octane substantially.

[rfinkle2]

@Ziggo hasn't dyno'd but is knock limited on his bnr s3 @ 3 gallons.

I believe he can add something to the thread, although not dyno data.

[djuosnteisn]

He has injector seals, etc? I haven't seen a single car knock limited on a mix yet.... but that doesn't mean much other than the obvious. I could definitely be wrong.

[rfinkle2]

What is involved in actually testing the octane of a mix of fuel? I'll pay to do it...

I just keep reading about the actual octane per a certain method vs. effective octane etc. , blah blah blah..

I'd mix a bunch of mixes and have it tested. I'll look into doing so.

[Lex]

^ Rob, you would have to call a lab. The octane is literally tested in a lab single cylinder with varying compression.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn He has injector seals, etc? I haven't seen a single car knock limited on a mix yet.... but that doesn't mean much other than the obvious. I could definitely be wrong.

I know E10 is knock limited

I think phate has tried different mixes and has seen some knock limitation in the lower mixes.

Also somewhat off-topic but if used properly, on a fast datalogger and 4th gear Vdyno can be quite accurate in showing changes from map to map - especially if back to back runs are made.

[hamptotl]

I was at a point where torque was not increasing anymore so I backed off a degree from where it was which was 2 degrees from where it wasnt.

[phate]

Most of the cars I have seen with knock on E85 were likely to be caused by noise. Meaning they weren't running timing curves nearly as aggressive as the above curves, but still getting 1-2° of kr on 3/9, up to 50/50 mixes. It's really annoying.

@Lex - I have not run mix long enough to do sufficient testing for my own car. My main focus was straight E85, with very limited time on 50/50 and 3/9.

Thanks @hamptotl, that's what I assumed you meant, but wanted to make sure.

I will have 1 or 2 cars running 50/50 on a dyno within a month or two, so we'll have a bit more data soon.

[Ziggo]

If it's valuable I will post up my timing and all other relevant data here later. As fink said, no dyno results, but was still seeing very noticeable gains in VD and in my EGTs when I hit the knock ceiling. I was/am consistently knock limited in the upper RPMs on a 3/9 mix. I do not have injector seals but the false knock I have seen from those has always been at peak torque, which is not where I am seeig it. This is also in 100* heat with BATs of 130. I may not be knock limited in the cooler temperatures now, but don't want to be constantly fiddling with the map. I am also using the BAT timing compensation table to knock down the timing further when it gets too high.


Zigatapatalka

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Ziggo If it's valuable I will post up my timing and all other relevant data here later. As fink said, no dyno results, but was still seeing very noticeable gains in VD and in my EGTs when I hit the knock ceiling. I was/am consistently knock limited in the upper RPMs on a 3/9 mix. I do not have injector seals but the false knock I have seen from those has always been at peak torque, which is not where I am seeig it. This is also in 100* heat with BATs of 130. I may not be knock limited in the cooler temperatures now, but don't want to be constantly fiddling with the map. I am also using the BAT timing compensation table to knock down the timing further when it gets too high. Zigatapatalka

Ah, no seals. I've seen several cars with "seal kr" in higher rpm's. In fact, that's generally where i expect to see it.

I'd be willing to bet $10 that your seals are causing the KR.

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Ah, no seals. I've seen several cars with "seal kr" in higher rpm's. In fact, that's generally where i expect to see it. I'd be willing to bet $10 that your seals are causing the KR.

Its was so consistent though, the seal KR is pretty random right? When I pushed timing I would get small counts of knock which disappeared with backing off just a touch. It wouldn't even show up in the morning logs, (higher loads) but only in the hotter afternoon logs.

I will be doing seals whenever JM finally starts selling intake manifolds, just one of those "might as well do" mods along with cleaning my valves.


Zigatapatalka

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Ziggo Its was so consistent though, the seal KR is pretty random right? When I pushed timing I would get small counts of knock which disappeared with backing off just a touch. It wouldn't even show up in the morning logs, (higher loads) but only in the hotter afternoon logs. I will be doing seals whenever JM finally starts selling intake manifolds, just one of those "might as well do" mods along with cleaning my valves. Zigatapatalka

It's pretty damn random indeed. Bout the only successful way i've been able to diagnose seals, is by asking the guy to "mix in a few gal e85", and see if the KR is still there. If it is, then 99% chance it's the seals.

Not saying it's for sure in your case, just that i wouldn't rule it out entirely. Also, seals will generally continue to "degrade"... and start showing KR more and more often. Eventually you'll be able to actually hear em... they sound like a popping noise. Kinda like banging a plastic pen on the table. Not metallic like deto, just more flat, like plastic.

Food for thought. I guess we'll all know once you get seals in there.


Only other way to see if your genuinely knock limited is to hop on the dyno, and raise your offsets way up in the higher rpms. Then, starting from the deemed safe timing your running now, start increasing it a hair at a time. If you were to get "slight" deto (without the sensor pulling timing), it would show up in the dyno graph as a quick dip in torque. And if your only adding a lil bit at a time, it most likely won't be enough to do any real damage imo.

But it is on the slightly "risky" side... so no blame ever if you don't care enough to do the test, hahahaha.

Last way to sometimes detect it, is with a compression test. If the seals are real bad, compression will sometimes be lower in that cylinder.

[hamptotl]

Man fuck seals is all I can. Dustin was helping me track those bastards down in the early stages of tuning. With that being said there isn't any ryme or reason to the knock they cause I.e. mine when thy were going out would start knocking as soon as I came into power around 3800ish rpm and would only stay there if not get worse all the way to redline. Zig I wouldn't rule it out man seriously and when you start hearing them then you know it's time. It sounds like suspension noise almost and just like dustin said a plastic pen on a table. It fucks you up though because it sounds like its right at the fire wall and you can't tell whether it's drivers side or passenger side. Crazy shit man lol gl. Sorry if this is all fucked up too guys I'm on my phone lol

[Nliiitend1]

Are the actual *E Numbers* in the first post taking into account whether the person is using a mix of either E85 and straight gas, or E85 and E10?

I know that at least here in the Midwest it's getting much harder to fine straight gas, so I just want to make sure that the data for say, @driver311's "E42.5" isn't really for "E47.5" instead...

[Dano]

Great point.

I use @phates calculator which takes into account 91/93 is actually E10 or at least I think it does..so my E35 is E35 4/8 mix

calculator attached.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 Are the actual *E Numbers* in the first post taking into account whether the person is using a mix of either E85 and straight gas, or E85 and E10? I know that at least here in the Midwest it's getting much harder to fine straight gas, so I just want to make sure that the data for say, driver311's "E42.5" isn't really for "E47.5" instead...

Nope, it is assumed they are using straight gas, not E10. So it's more like a minimum eth content...which isn't a bad thing. We can't guarantee E85 is 85% and E10 is really 10%, so it's all a guessing game lol. That's why we back things off just a touch for safety.

Originally Posted by Dano Great point. I use phate calculator which takes into account 91/93 is actually E10 or at least I think it does..so my E35 is E35 calculator attached.

I can't take credit for that one! I think Enki or someone made that calc.

[Enki]

Not me; 09/30/2011, 15:41:57, Chris Shreve

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn He has injector seals, etc? I haven't seen a single car knock limited on a mix yet.... but that doesn't mean much other than the obvious. I could definitely be wrong.

DJ,

I have run into a few that get spurts of KR in the .3-.5x region several degrees before what I would expect to be close to MBT even with a 50/50 mix of e85. Interesting phenomenon.

[AzSpeedin]

As with Bucker, I to get a .3 .5ish from time to time randomly on a 4 gal mix with graduated timing to a total of 18 degrees and a 12.0afr. Car runs fantastic otherwise.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Enki Not me; 09/30/2011, 15:41:57, Chris Shreve

Lol

I don't remember where I got that from. Somewhere on MSF though

[GoSpeed3Go]

Originally Posted by Bucker DJ, I have run into a few that get spurts of KR in the .3-.5x region several degrees before what I would expect to be close to MBT even with a 50/50 mix of e85. Interesting phenomenon.

like this? little run i did today. on 2g/5g. other runs i did following zeroed out.

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by Dano Lol I don't remember where I got that from. Somewhere on MSF though

First I was like wtf, why is my full name on MSF, I didn't piss off phillyb, then I lol'ed

[Enki]

It's in the properties for the file Dano attached.