The questions part of Ethanol FAQ - Direct Injection specific

[Twofer]

Kings of Corn, grant us your knowledge.

Posts from Enki in RED (will edit all together later)
Posts from phate in BLUE

Originally Posted by phate I think it's about time we make our own FAQ, I've been considering doing this for quite some time.

That would be extremely awesome. Since it's an FAQ and I'm a Ethanol noob, let me ask some questions. (Seems like a decent place to start.) I'll throw in answers from what I've gleaned pouring over these threads, but please correct and/or elaborate.

Disclaimer: My (sample answers) may be incorrect, I merely wish to provide a template for the FAQ.

GENERAL

Q: What is E85 / Ethanol?
(An alcohol fuel made from corn / organic matter. E85 means 85% ethanol* and 15% other hydrocarbon fuels sort of like gasoline. It's not regulated by octane rating like gasoline is, but is sufficiently badass.)

(* See summer / winter blends)

Q: Why run Ethanol?
(Suppressing knock and being able to run more boost and timing. On a 50/50 mix X hp and Y torque increase possible with a good toon.)

Ethanol has an incredibly high latent heat capacity, along with a regular octane rating of ~104 (depending on what you read). But, in a direct injection application, all of that latent heat capacity (the amount of heat used to evaporate it) is utilized in the cylinder, giving a much higher 'effective' octane rating. Pure ethanol, E100, was calculated to be ~160 octane; whereas pure methanol, M100, is ~180. As you can imagine, even small amounts of ethanol have a great affect on knock suppression.

Q: Where can I get it?
Alternative Fuels Data Center: Ethanol Fueling Station Locations
Propel Fuels: Renewable Fuels | E85 Ethanol | Biodiesel ? Propel Fuels
E85 Gas Station Locations and Alternative Fuel Information
E85 Stations
Android phone 'keendriver' app
Cleaner & Greener Fuels app on iPhone

Q: What mods do I need to run Ethanol fuels?
(No mods other than HPFP and tune)
On extremely low mixes (1-2 gallons), you can get away with no mods. When tuning for it, you may find that you have to reduce boost to sustain fuel flow without internals.

As with anything, flow mods that allow the engine to breathe will still gain power. Power comes from airflow, first and foremost, taking advantage of it without encountering knock is where E85 comes in. As you increase ethanol content, the fuel demand increases. Beyond 15-20% additional ethanol content, and you are risking dropping fuel pressure with a conservative AFR.

Q: Anything I should do before running Ethanol?
clean the pump when going above ~25% mix, just to be safe.

Set up a tune for it, just like you would when tuning any car from scratch. Start conservative, work your way up.

Q: Should I run straight ethanol or some kind of mixture?
(Mixtures of Gallons E85 / Gallons Gasoline)
3/11 yields E26 and is good for a moderate increase in power/torque.
50/50 yields E48 and is good for the standard, sneaking through the bushes rape.
Straight E85 is good for cell block rape.

Q: What was that about Winter/Summer and Seasonal Blends?
The ethanol content varies seasonally. E85 has a minimum of 70% Ethanol content during the winter, and a minimum of 79% during the summer. More ethanol = leaner mixtures. If you consider the extremes of minimum and maximum ethanol content, going from Winter (70%) to Summer (85%) will result in lean operation. Going from Summer (85%) to Winter (70%) will result in rich operation. (Requesting comment) Note, if you're running a mixture, you can compensate for the ethanol content by adding more or less E85.
Fuel mix cheat sheets
E85 Mustangs.com - Tuning for E85

Q: What's the gas mileage like on Ethanol?
This depends entirely on the tune and driving habits. Mileage can be as good if not better on 50/50 than completely stock on pump gas if tuned for it and driven non-aggressively.

Expect to lose some mileage with E85. As you increase ethanol content, the more mileage you lose. I saw an approximate loss of 25% mileage on straight E85. If you're in the boost more often (you will be), then expect significantly less.

Q: How does Ethanol fuel (E85) compare to Water Methanol Injection (WMI)?

Both are effective knock deterrents. It typically comes down to what is available, and what power you are trying to make.

MECHANICAL ISSUES

Q: What about other Ethanol pump blends E30, E50, E98?
No mechanical issues demonstrated on blends up to ~E45.

Q: Will anything bad happen to my car?
(Black death at mixtures over ____ % mixture and running ___ kind of engine oil)
Frequent tire changes with even light use (lolnotraction)
Pump/spill valve cleanings over 50/50

2nd Gen MS3's sometimes see a failure of the fuel level sensor. It isn't common, but it is a known issue. Many have been covered under warranty.

Fro - I don't remember how much it was.. but MMS has it for $28, normally $45... and that sounds about what I paid for it. However, that's the only problem I've had using a 50/50 e85 mix for about a year and a half.

Q: What can I do about the black death?
(Remove and clean HPFP with naptha when pressure drops)
This might be fixable with specific types of oil used.
Kings of Corn (HPFP + OIL)

TOONING

Q: Do I have to get the car tuned?
To take advantage of it (meaning make more power from it), yes, you need to be tuned for it. If you are planning to run >~20% ethanol content, you need a tune regardless of whether you want to make more power or not.

Q: Are there off the shelf (OTS) maps for Ethanol?
Neg. We could make some though.

Q: What do I need to change in my toon to run Ethanol?
Adjust the Fuel Specific Gravity and Injector Scalar value by Enki's calculated values. Before these options were added to AccessTuner Race, the way to do it was to scale the MAF curve.
Fuel mix cheat sheets

MAF curve is old school. FSG and IS are the new sauce, use those instead.

Q: Then what can do with my toon once I'm on Ethanol?
(Increase boost and timing by _____ ballpark figures. Split difference between timing database and your current settings?)
Timing is something people who need a guide for the fuel probably shouldn't be messing with; direct to general tuning guide.

Q: Anything to look out for when tooning?
(Knock sensor, MBT)
("When tuning timing for E, use the MAF sensor. Voltage flattens out, you're at the peak and should back it down a bit. Make sure you do the comparison runs under nearly identical conditions (temp, humidity, elevation, etc) if you can't do it on a dyno." -Enki)
If timing changes and it feels slower, you've probably gone too far.

I disagree with Enki a bit, here. For timing, be conservative and go by known good values until you are able to get on a dyno to find MBT. Very close analysis using Virtual Dyno is only good enough for the initial, broad changes. It (in my experience), is not reliable enough to report a change of 3-4hp, which is what you will see as timing gets close to MBT.

Q: Tooning differences between Winter/Summer and Seasonal Blends?
(LTFTs? Reduce boost during winter because of fuel demand?)
---- *Removed for typo.
(If you) tune during winter and it will run leaner in the summer. (Bad.) More e = more fuel has to be injected to reach targets, so you always want to tune during summer months or with your summer mix. You'll run rich in the winter. (Which is ok.)

STORAGE

Q: Can I store Ethanol in fuel jugs?
(Yes, keep away from moisture.)
Sealed containers are best.

Q: Should I use an additive to preserve the fuel?
(Sta-bil ethanol treatment?)

Q: How long can I keep Ethanol stored?
(?)
How good is the container at keeping moisture out?

Q: Can I test the Ethanol?
(Yes, using an Ethanol Tester kit, you can determine how much water is dissolved in the Ethanol.)

[TheFlash]

From my thread I have gathered that MPG really depends on the driver. On average you can look to lose 50-100 miles per tank, no matter what mix you run. With SUPER conservative driving you can match whatever MPG you made on pump.


Sent blindly on Tapatalk

[Twofer]

Originally Posted by TheFlash you can look the lose 50-100 mpg per tank

Damn man, I'm only getting 20 mpg as it is, losing 50 mpg would be brutal.

By the way, if you guys want to add or answer questions, just post em and I'll edit the OP. Otherwise feel free to gank the format and start a proper FAQ.

[TheFlash]

Originally Posted by Twofer Damn man, I'm only getting 20 mpg as it is, losing 50 mpg would be brutal.

Lol edited! Working nights makes me slow. 30 more minutes!!!! But if you are getting 20 mpg right now, you will probably drop down close to 15 with the same style driving.


Sent blindly on Tapatalk

[MSP6]

MPG will depend on the blend and how much you keep your foot out of it. I drive a decent blend of city/highway, 70 mile round trip for work. Got around 320-330 per tank (to gas light) if I was nice to it on 93. I can squeak out 300 on my 50/50 blend. In my experience the change in mileage from winter to summer is worse than from running E.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Twofer Q: What mods do I need to run Ethanol fuels? On extremely low mixes (1-2 gallons), you can get away with no mods. When tuning for it, you may find that you have to reduce boost to sustain fuel flow without internals. Q: Anything I should do before running Ethanol? Clean the pump when going above ~25% mix, just to be safe. Q: Should I run straight ethanol or some kind of mixture? (Mixtures of Gallons E85 / Gallons Gasoline) (3/11 yields E26 and is good for...) A moderate increase in power/torque. (50/50 yields E48 and is good for...) Standard, sneaking through the bushes rape. (Straight E85 is good for...) Cell block rape. Q: What was that about Winter/Summer and Seasonal Blends? Link to cheatsheets Q: What's the gas mileage like on Ethanol? This depends entirely on the tune and driving habits. Mileage can be as good if not better on 50/50 than completely stock on pump gas if tuned for it and driven non-aggressively. MECHANICAL ISSUES Q: What about other Ethanol pump blends E30, E50, E98? No mechanical issues demonstrated on blends up to ~E45. Q: Will anything bad happen to my car? Frequent tire changes with even light use, pump/spill valve cleanings over 50/50 Q: What can I do about the black death? (Remove and clean HPFP with naptha when pressure drops) This might be fixable with specific types of oil used. TOONING Q: Do I have to get the car tuned? Not for low mixes (1-2 gallons), but why use it if you don't tune for it? Q: Are there off the shelf (OTS) maps for Ethanol? (No?) Neg. We could make some though. Q: What do I need to change in my toon to run Ethanol? (Adjust the Fuel Specific Gravity and Injector Scalar value by Enki's calculated values? Or adjust MAF curve?) MAF curve is old school. FSG and IS are the new sauce, use those instead. Q: Then what can do with my toon once I'm on Ethanol? (Increase boost and timing by _____ ballpark figures. Split difference between timing database and your current settings?) Timing is something people who need a guide for the fuel probably shouldn't be messing with; direct to general tuning guide. Q: Anything to look out for when tooning? (Knock sensor, MBT) ("When tuning timing for E, use the MAF sensor. Voltage flattens out, you're at the peak and should back it down a bit. Make sure you do the comparison runs under nearly identical conditions (temp, humidity, elevation, etc) if you can't do it on a dyno." -Enki) This. If timing changes and it feels slower, you've probably gone too far. Q: Tooning differences between Winter/Summer and Seasonal Blends? (LTFTs? Reduce boost during winter because of fuel demand?) Tune during summer and it will just run richer in the summer. No harm there. Tune during summer and it will run leaner in winter; on high mixes, again, no harm there either. Personally, I prefer to have multiple maps. STORAGE Q: Can I store Ethanol in fuel jugs? (Yes, keep away from moisture.) Sealed containers are best. Q: How long can I keep Ethanol stored? (?) How good is the container at keeping moisture out?

My input is above.

Edit:
My most recent test mileage wise saw >90 miles to the quarter tank on the freeway, target speed of 80mph. The tank average was 26.8 MPG, which means assuming the same average, that tank would have taken me to 375 miles to dry tank. Reference:

E and MPG

[iammike]

Just reading this and noticed a typo that could confuse people.

"Tune during summer and it will just run richer in the summer. No harm there. Tune during summer and it will run leaner in winter; on high mixes, again, no harm there either. Personally, I prefer to have multiple maps."

It should be this...

Tune during winter and it will just run richer in the summer. No harm there. Tune during summer and it will run leaner in winter; on high mixes, again, no harm there either. Personally, I prefer to have multiple maps.

I believe I'm correct but feel free to call me a noob if I"m wrong.

[Enki]

No, tune during winter and it will run leaner in the summer.

More e = more fuel has to be injected to reach targets, so you always want to tune during summer months or with your summer mix. You'll run rich in the winter.

[Dizzy Turbo]

Would run richer in winter I would assume not summer
Edit: Nevermind I was way too slow haha

[iammike]

Regardless, it said "Tune during summer and it will just run richer in the summer." so either one summer or the other is wrong.

[Twofer]

Originally Posted by iammike Regardless, it said "Tune during summer and it will just run richer in the summer." so either one summer or the other is wrong.

Ok, updated the FAQ using Enki's post.

[Unknownuser]

Nicely done, should you change your AFR's in ATR to match your blend or leave them alone?

[cld12pk2go]

Mileage for me...

I can get 340 miles per tank on summer blend 93, but only 270 miles per tank on my E40 blend...

But I get many more Smiles per Mile with E40...

[Enki]

Cut max timing, lean burn + no vvt and slightly less aggressive driving = better than stock mileage.

I've undone all of the above and my mileage has suffered greatly. GREATLY.

[MrShark]

@Enki, you seem to be one of the forefathers of corn powered speed. Is there any real consensus on how to run 100% E85 best to avoid black death? I've got E85 availability all around me and would love a tune for it but seeing people with issues as soon as 50-couple hundred miles makes me nervous. I see in the other thread VR-1 didn't work for you, is there a leader in the oil search? It seems mixing would be a bigger pain in the ass than using the right oil and going balls deep with 100%. Sorry for grilling you but I'm trying to get a general idea what kind of a bitch 100% would be.

[phate]

My notes in OP in Blue.

[Enki]

Firstly, Phate would be the grand-high archon of corn, not me. He was the first one with balls enough to try it. Next comes Silvapain and then someone else (Glorifiedbozo?) then me.

Honestly mixing isn't that bad; that said, I've not found a specific oil that works well with full sauce yet (so far as I am aware that is). After looking inside my pump today, I may give it another shot as soon as tomorrow on my next tank.

In other news, I'm still working on something that may be oil agnostic as far as full sauce goes; time will tell. Check the following post/thread (best to read all of it for insight though):

Resolving HPFP corn woes (black death/sticking spill valve)

[Cheapspeed]

@CWP_MS3, or some other mod. I think this thread should be stickied. A lot of good information here in an organized format that isn't in the above stickies. It answered a lot of my questions.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Cheapspeed @CWP_MS3, or some other mod. I think this thread should be stickied. A lot of good information here in an organized format that isn't in the above stickies. It answered a lot of my questions.

Done.

And I changed the name of the thread to note that some of the info is specific to DI engines. The NASIOC thread is somewhat incorrect in a few sections, and we have issues that PI engines do not.

[CWP_MS3]

Perhaps we should put the price of the pu's fuel level sensor next to phate's comment about them going bad. IIRC, they're not very expensive so that shouldn't be a major deterrent from running E.

@brandonf; how much was it?

[brandonf]

Originally Posted by CWP_MS3 Perhaps we should put the price of the pu's fuel level sensor next to phate's comment about them going bad. IIRC, they're not very expensive so that shouldn't be a major deterrent from running E. @brandonf; how much was it?

I don't remember how much it was.. but MMS has it for $28, normally $45... and that sounds about what I paid for it. However, that's the only problem I've had using a 50/50 e85 mix for about a year and a half.

[CWP_MS3]

Originally Posted by brandonf I don't remember how much it was.. but MMS has it for $28, normally $45... and that sounds about what I paid for it. However, that's the only problem I've had using a 50/50 e85 mix for about a year and a half.

Added in orange.

[Ferdball]

Q: Should I run straight ethanol or some kind of mixture? (Mixtures of Gallons E85 / Gallons Gasoline) 3/11 yields E26 and is good for a moderate increase in power/torque. 50/50 yields E48 and is good for the standard, sneaking through the bushes rape. Straight E85 is good for cell block rape.

On a K04, with all of the supporting mods, what is the optimal mixture? I have about 330HP on the VDyno with 2.5g E85. If I were to increase the mixture of E, at what point will there be a diminishing return? 5 gallons? 7.5?

[Enki]

IMO, 100%

[Ferdball]

Originally Posted by Enki IMO, 100%

So if I'm tuned for 2.5 gal with 17' timing and no knock, could I just increase the mix and gain power without a retune?

[Enki]

Probably but not enough to notice. What you would get is power stability through BAT heatsoaking, cause corn don't care.

[CWP_MS3]

Originally Posted by Enki Probably but not enough to notice. What you would get is power stability through BAT heatsoaking, cause corn don't care.

Honey Badger don't care, Honey Badger don't give a shit!

[Twofer]

Cool, glad this got stickied and updated. I just got a $10 free ethanol gift card and filled up a 3 gal mix. Loaded up my old ethanol map.

Hey, one year anniversary of this thread! (Convenient!)

[Ireland]

I'm running 50/50 right now. Would the gains be worth it to run 100% e? And how much gain difference in average per say? I don't mind cleaning pump.

[Enki]

Stock turbo: I say yes, but largely unproven, unless you see Phate's stock turbo / top mount vids where he pretty much destroys everything in his path.

Big turbo: Not unless you want to run 5th port or stock boost levels. Sea level + maxed stock turbo is about all you'll get out of the fuel system without zeroing VVT if memory serves.

[anodizedeeznutz]

I see fairly mixed opinions as far as issues I may see running 50 50. @Enki; what's your opinion? Fully bolted will I see many issues on 50 50?

Tapatalkin'

[Enki]

Stock turbo no; just be precise with your ratios and don't go over 50/50 mix by volume in the tank. If you do run it fat for a tank, expect intermittent single cell pressure drops until you clean the pump (spill valve).

Big turbo looked like this for me:

Full E (~E75): out of fuel at 10 PSI
50/50 (~E42): out of fuel at ~12-15 PSI
3/9 (~E26): out of fuel at 18-20 psi (depending on elevation/temps)

I'm tempted to try out a 2/10 mix but I'm not sure if I'll still be running enough to be past knock threshold or not.

[JgamB]

I think the winter blends have an appreciable impact when you're riding the razor's edge. I have to put an extra half gallon in to avoid KR with my 3/9 mix. It might be E74 or E70, I'm not sure if they adhere to the guidelines geographically or not tbh.

If the filler fuel is 87oct, you're not just losing 15% Eth, your also getting 15% more 87 (presumably - I'd expect they'd use the cheapest shit possible).

I might try a gallon of race gas to offset ($8/gal ouch) the winter blend losses and see if that cleans up my hints of 4-6K RPM KR instead of more corn. I'd rather not run out of fuel when I go BNR in the winter months.

[Enki]

Where I'm at, we get E74 in the winter months, and I've been mixing with 91. No knock yet.

[anodizedeeznutz]

So with my situation here for example. My premium at the station's that carry E has 91 octane with no ethanol. So 6 gallons and 6 gallons I really would never pass 50 percent volume of E.

Tapatalkin'

[Enki]

You never would even with E10 + E85; that would still only add up to ~E95 for half the tank.

[anodizedeeznutz]

Originally Posted by Enki You never would even with E10 + E85; that would still only add up to ~E95 for half the tank.

Great to hear I shouldn't have any issues at 50-50. Thank you for your insight.

Tapatalkin'

[hookemdevils22]

@Enki; have you noticed much difference in E blends down south? I've been talking to some local shops here in PHX about tuning with corn, and the consensus seems to be to test the ethanol before dropping in the tank due to wild fluctuations in actual E content. It's been suggested to look into an ethanol monitor for the fuel system, but that's obviously out of the question.

Seems like one would want to either setup several tunes (for winter/summer blend), or vary the mixture according to tested ethanol content.

[Enki]

I used to tune for just minimum federal e-content, but then I found out that both the pumps I normally hit have full E85 year round.

If you're worried about it that much, mafcal on pump gas, then make a couple maps for minimum federal e-content then adjust accordingly.

Edit: The worst that can happen is you run a little rich.

[hookemdevils22]

FYI, fed requirements are now 51-83% ethanol for any class E85 per ASTM spec D5798 (ref Table 1, pg. 3).

From the alt fuels data center (emphasis mine):

ASTM International developed a specification for gasoline-ethanol blends containing 51% to 83% ethanol that address proper vehicle starting, operation, and safety in varying temperature conditions. E85 sold during colder months often contain lower levels of ethanol to produce the vapor pressure necessary for starting in cold temperatures.

Not sure when the minimum was changed, but the OP should be updated to reflect that.